Show Notes
In this episode we interview writer, broadcaster and artist, Lachlan Goudie who recently published his remarkable new book — The Secrets of Painting: The Hidden Art of the Masterpiece from Prehistory to Today (Thames & Hudson 2026). Lachlan Goudie is a writer, broadcaster and artist. His previous book, The Story of Scottish Art (2020) was linked to a TV series of same title which he presented. It’s clear he loves painting and has a huge interest in and knowledge of its history as an art form. The Secrets of Painting is a big fat lavishly illustrated book: in 20 chapters it examines 20 magnificent works and reveals more about painting than you ever thought you wanted to know: but it’s stuff that’s really worth knowing! It’s a masterpiece of research and synthesis. I found reading it revelatory, each painting is opened out, in the context of its time, to reveal what the painter did in raising his or her work to a new level of artistry. It reveals how artists over the centuries have used and adapted innovations in technologies and materials, to create masterpieces that have since inspired awe in millions of people. It’s a fascinating account and I strongly recommend it to anyone who enjoys art. It is clear that a lot of thought and planning went into the book. It offers an impressively deep view of painting: the painter’s processes and how a painting takes shape — how individual painters pushed themselves to use, manipulate and invent materials to create transcendent works. It engenders a profound sense of the painter’s craft and knowledge. In this episode, Lachlan Goudie kindly agreed to talk to us about what motivated him to write the book and how he went about making his selection. He also explains the particular innovations and qualities of some of the paintings he chose, and talks about the artists behind the masterpieces, and how their lives and times influenced their works. To begin the interview, I wondered if his own experience of art school, which was less than satisfactory, had anything to do with his decision to write it. I then asked Lachlan how he chose the works from the thousands of possible examples — how personal were his choices for example — as there is an interesting range of both familiar and less familiar choices. He describes his process, drawing on research from numerous sources, of making the final selection. I wanted to know why he started in prehistory, with the cave paintings in Chauvet, France, which are not part of a continuous artistic tradition, as such. However he points out that they are impressive evidence of the creativity and skill of pre-historic artists — something he is particularly keen to highlight. The book presents a chronological picture of how advances in available materials, and the innovations and inventions of individual artists changed the course of art history. Each painting represents a moment of change or development in the technology available to an artist, and the way an artist pushes the boundaries of what was previously thought possible. It also illustrates other shifts in the history of painting. Most of the paintings that Lachlan selected are from the European tradition, but he chose a small sample from elsewhere in the world over the period of time the book covers: one each from Egypt, China, India, Japan and Aboriginal Australia. He explains that he wanted to demonstrate that there are numerous traditions of artistic creation which have produced stunning masterpieces across the world and that Europe is not alone in the inventiveness, skill and talent of its artists. This helps contextualize Europe in a global context without claiming to fully represent other art traditions. I selected several paintings from the book and ask Lachlan how each represented a moment of change and development in painting. You can examine the images below while listening to Lachlan’s explanation of them. Giotto’s, The Dream of Joachim, part of the stunning sequence in Scrovegni Chapel in
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Our first episode on poetry? If you’ve been following Arts First for a while you’ll know we’ve looked at the life and work of William Blake, discussed the Genius of Shakespeare and we had a stab at Homer’s epic the Odyssey, but up to now, we haven’t talked specifically about poetry. I’d been thinking about this for quite a while and felt we really should do something. However I seldom read poetry and studied almost no poetry at secondary school. On the rare occasions I pick up a book of poetry, I’m never quite sure what to make of it, how to read it, how to judge it. Is it good, is it bad? Should I feel moved, should I laugh or maybe cry? I am never quite sure. So where to start? Since I’ve not long moved to Hastings, the self-styled Poet Town, I thought I’d find myself a poet roaming the streets and pressgang them onto the show. Luckily I knew just where to find a very good one - the wonderful Tim Rich - who willingly agreed to my demands. I said to Tim, look I really want to do a show on poetry, but I don’t know where to start. I’m a bit clueless. You could say I’m a bit scared of poetry. Maybe I should leave it a while, do some reading and procrastinate a bit more? Tim said, I actually wrote a poem called Afraid of Poetry because one or two other people said the same thing to me. Well isn’t that interesting, I thought and we both agreed this could be a good starting point for a conversation. Let’s talk about it and see if it’s true. If so, why, what’s going? Is it psychological? Does Tim just have weird friends? Is poetry in decline more broadly? Has something changed in our culture or our education system? If nothing else, we can always blame the teachers. So that’s what we do. We talk about poetry, its current state of health today, how to approach it as a reader, how to enjoy it and how not to be afraid. Tim also reads us a couple of his poems and very kindly gives us some reading recommendations (see below). By the way, I did procrastinate more before we got around to doing this show. I went to a couple of poetry readings. I survived, and very much enjoyed an evening of the Waste Land at Wiltons Music Hall, read brilliantly by a famous actor. I bought a pocketbook of Walt Whitman poems. I read a little from the William Blake I’d bought for podcast research. I flicked through a friend’s wonderfully moving collection of First World War Poetry. I even opened my book of Hannah Arendt poems someone gave to me as a birthday present quite a while ago. Maybe poetry is not so scary after all! I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I enjoyed talking to Tim. I hope you feel inspired to read more poetry. P.S. You might notice that we recorded our discussion in my kitchen, which I thought would make a welcome change from our usual online meetings. However, it was a very very sunny day, so I apologise if the video is a bit bright at times, and that I am sat at a bit of an angle to the camera. We don’t have access or resources for a flashy podcast studio, but we hope that does not put you off or spoil your enjoyment. Tim Rich… is a poet, writer, editor, and New York Times Bestselling ghostwriter. He lives and writes in Hastings, England. He also takes lo-fi photographs. His work appears in numerous anthologies, journals, and exhibitions—and at readings and events. Tim’s links and reading recommendations Hundred House Press John Carey - A Little History of Poetry Diane Seuss - Modern Poetry, Frank: Sonnets Neil Baker - Knock Wood Thomas Sharp
Rosie Kay has had an award winning career in dance and choreography. She is the director of her own company K2CO and is in the forefront of the campaign Freedom in the Arts, which she founded with Denise Fahmy, after the experience of being cancelled because of her gender-critical views. We have interviewed Rosie in the past, here, when she and Denise Fahmy talked about their experiences of cancellation, and how their fight back turned them into foremost campaigners for freedom of expression in the arts! In this episode though, we wanted to learn about why she became a dancer and choreographer and how she approaches the creation of new works. We specifically focus on two films that she has made of two of her creations. Adult Female Dancer is a solo performance which she created during COVID and 5 Soldiers: The Body is the Frontline which she premiered in 2010 after a long period of training and embedding herself in a military unit. We ask Rosie to start by explaining contemporary dance as a dance form, which she did eloquently, mentioning dancers that inspired her own development. Rosie then talks about the creation of each film in detail. We were curious about her process — how something that started off as an improvisation developed into a more or less fixed piece of work that she performed a number of time, how she chose the music and the significance of gesture, humour and pacing. Adult Female Dancer reflects her life in dance, why she kept returning to dance despite injury, despite needing sometimes to take a break from it. She talks about her maturation as a dancer, leaving behind the need to be lathe and agile and accepting how she adapted to the way her body changed and what she wanted to express about her life, her bottomless love of dance. 5 Soldiers arose out of and started to take form as a result of a serious injury that nearly disabled her. It was during the Iraq War (2003) and while she was coming out of anesthetic she had a dream that she was a severely injured soldier. When she eventually recovered she found her way into becoming embedded in a military unit, training for battle, and this gave her the material for the dance. It also made her realise that her commitment to dance, and willingness to take risks for it, is not so different to a soldier’s commitment: hence the work’s subtitle: The body is the frontline. Towards the end of the episode we discuss the way an artist has to have the courage to face the challenges that the art presents — not just physical and emotional, but also refusing to give in to those who want you to stop. Freedom of expression is at the core of artistic creation, and Rosie’s commitment to using that freedom comes across really clearly as she talks about her work. We really enjoyed this interview with Rosie. Her passion for her vocation is palpable. We hope you get as much out of it as we did. Follow Rosie Kay on Instagram @rosiekayk2co and X @RosieKayK2CO and Substack Rosie Kay Visit Freedom in the Arts. Malvern Theatre, Worcestershire Saturday 7 November, 4.30pmPost-show discussion at 5.30pmhttps://malvern-theatres.co.uk/event/5-soldiers-the-body-is-the-frontline-live-qa-with-rosie-kay-and-brigadier-ed-butler-cbe-dso/ Please come, bring someone and share with anyone in military, veteran, history, documentary, dance, film or civic life.
I really enjoyed this discussion with Nat Edwards, Leeds-based Director General and Master of the Armouries, Ella Nixon, an academic, curator, and writer, specialising in regional art collections and women’s art; and Lawrence Goldman, Executive Editor of History Reclaimed. After I presented the themes of the discussion as I outline below, they offered fascinating insights into the challenges facing museums today with regard to the collections. I do hope you enjoy this discussion as much as I did. A recent report by the National Heritage Lottery Fund found that long term shortfalls in funding have put museum collections under severe strain from a crumbling infrastructure, inadequate storage, a reduced workforce and a decline in specialist skills. Museums have long been underfunded and, in the face of the global economic downturn, are increasingly deprioritised by government and philanthropic sponsors. There is no doubt museums should be funded more generously but perhaps underlying the funding crisis is a deeper crisis of purpose. And a recent parliamentary report on the financial resilience of museums implied that the government can hardly be bothered with museums any more. Museums are places where historical remains and artefacts are stored, catalogued, researched and displayed. While displayed objects are often a tiny fraction of the collections, behind the scenes a central purpose of museums is storage, conservation, development and care of collections. One of my main concerns is that society has forgotten how to truly value collections and the museums that are responsible for them. In recent decades museums have been subject to charges of irrelevance, inaccessibility, racist and sexist bias, homophobia and transphobia. They have been attacked for profiting from colonialism and slavery, for perpetuating elitist conservative ideologies and nostalgia, and for not keeping up with the needs and interests of the contemporary world and multicultural communities. In response, museums have gone to great lengths to demonstrate their relevance, their commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion, and their economic and social value. Many museums have attempted to become more appealing to children, young people and various ethnic communities. Some have even embraced the campaigns that challenge them, acquiescing to calls to ‘decolonise’ their collections and labelling their displays to reflect so-called ‘progressive’ interests. Some have gone so far in demonstrating their progressive credentials that they have alienated visitors. But, in being alert to contemporary preoccupations, have museums failed to pay sufficient attention to securing their collections from theft, cyber attack and ongoing decay and damage? Are museum leaders losing touch with their institutions’ fundamental priorities to preserve the historical record for current and future generations? Could it be argued that the museum sector has given way to a kind of ‘presentism’, at the expense of caring for its historic collections? And is AI going to push them even further away from their traditions? Can museums find a way through their current crisis back to their basic principles? In this episode of Arts First podcast, we ask our three illustrious and well-qualified panelists to consider whether museums have failed their collections, and what they think should be done to resolve the current crisis. How do museums keep up with the modern world without losing sight of what makes them unique? Nat Edwards is Director General and Master of the Armouries. He was previously CEO at the Thackray Museum of Medicine, and has over 30 years of experience in UK cultural and heritage institutions, including the British Museum, Science Museum Group, and National Library of Scotland. Nat Edwards is speaking in this session at the Battle of Ideas, on art activism and this one on the challenges and opportunities in the arts today.* Ella Nixon is an academic, curator, and writer with a PhD
Mention the words ‘Venice’ and ‘opera’ together and for most of us that would bring to mind La Fenice, the city’s world-famous opera house, which first opened in the 1790s. But the history of opera in Venice goes back much further, beginning with a small, largely forgotten playhouse called Teatro San Cassiano. More significantly, it was in fact the world’s first public opera house. Until Teatro San Cassiano opened in 1637, opera had remained a private spectacle, reserved for the aristocracy and performed only in the ducal palaces of cities such as Florence and Mantua. Our guest today, Dr Paul Atkin, is the founder and CEO of a hugely ambitious project to bring San Cassiano back to life – to reconstruct the theatre in the Santa Croce district of Venice, along the Grand Canal, close to its original site. Niall is joined for this conversation by linguist Elisabetta Gasperoni, who brings her own particular knowledge and perspective on Italian culture and music to our discussion. It’s a fascinating project that holds out the promise of all kinds of possibilities and benefits. According to the project website, there are three ‘clear objectives’: * To reconstruct the Teatro San Cassiano of 1637 as faithfully as modern scholarship and traditional craftsmanship will allow, delivering a fully functioning, dedicated Baroque opera house, complete with its own fully operational Baroque stage machinery, moving scene-sets and special effects. * To restore historically-informed Baroque opera to Venice. * To establish the Teatro San Cassiano as a world-renowned centre for the research, exploration and staging of Historically Informed Performance – literally studying Baroque opera through its recital on stage and in the orchestra pit. Dr Atkin is a musicologist and entrepreneur based in Venice. The project he founded launched officially in 2019 with an international conference and exhibition. His vision of recreating the world’s first public opera house goes back much further, and Paul has been working tirelessly on it ever since. In March, he launched the project in the US with high-profile events in New York and Washington. And the list of Paul’s media and press appearances and coverage is exhausting. One of the difficulties in planning this discussion was where to begin, what to focus on and what to leave out. The project throws up so many possibilities for discussion. We could easily talk about architecture, stage and theatre design, Baroque music, 17th-century Venice, musicology, education, the meaning of Historically Informed Performance, and even tourism. In a wide-ranging conversation, we certainly touch on many of those themes. We look at how and why the original Teatro San Cassiano came about – thanks to the Venetian noble family, the Trons – and consider its significance and impact on the city and beyond. We explore the musical context of the time, the Early Baroque period, and prominent composers such as Monteverdi and his student Francesco Cavalli. We also ask what impact Teatro San Cassiano had on the musical landscape. Was Monteverdi’s ‘return’ to opera prompted by the emergence of the new public opera house? And how did opera’s newfound freedom from the royal courts affect the music and the artists who created it? Did opera become a more democratic art form? We consider why the project matters, what Paul is aiming to achieve, and its significance in terms of musicology and academic research. Paul draws comparisons with the recreated Shakespeare’s Globe Theatre and tells us about the influence and support of key members of the London project, including Globe architect Jon Greenfield (pictured above). We also look at the project in terms of wider public understanding and education, tourism and more, before looking ahead to some of the challenges and obstacles that remain before the project can finally be realised. Links, listening and reading recommendations Teatro San Cassiano project Greenfield Architects ‘The Eight Book of Madr
In our 50th episode we take a bit of a roundabout look at the Odyssey on film. We discuss some of the creative challenges and opportunities faced by filmmakers who choose to take on this epic poem that inspired Classical Greece, but predated it by many centuries. Of course, its influence casts a very long shadow over Western art and culture down the ages, and its origins – most likely in oral, semi-improvised song/storytelling – have intrigued academics and historians for centuries. As the focus of our discussion is the creative interpretation of the filmmaker, we look in a bit more detail at one film, Jean-Luc Godard’s 1963 Odyssey-themed Le Mépris (Contempt), starring Michel Piccoli, Brigitte Bardot, Jack Palance and Fritz Lang. Our guests are Maren Thom and Alex Dale, writers and commentators on film, TV and theatre, and presenters of the podcast Performance Anxiety. We’ve been thinking about how to approach this episode for a while. I had read author and Classics scholar Daniel Mendelsohn’s 2017 memoir, An Odyssey. Mendelsohn explores some of the themes in the Odyssey through the prism of a term spent teaching it to a class of young undergraduates, along with his 81-year-old father. Mendelsohn Senior is a seemingly hard-nosed, Brooklyn-raised Maths professor who sees in Odysseus not a hero but a ‘sissy’ who cries too much and is rescued by the Gods whenever he gets into bother. The experience reveals much, changes and deepens the relationship between father and son, who have never quite seen eye-to-eye. An Odyssey, then, is partly a study of relationships – father-son, teacher-student, intergenerational etc. And Mendelsohn uses this as a very subtle pretext to explore similar themes in the Odyssey itself. In short, there’s much more to the epic poem than nymphs and one-eyed monsters. Over the Christmas holidays I got around to reading the Odyssey itself for the first time. Daniel Mendelsohn’s own translation was published in 2025. I read mainly that, but took the opportunity to dip in and out of different translations on the way, from Penguin Classics, to Emily Wilson’s alleged ‘feminist’ take, to Alexander Pope’s early C18th classic, which Mendelsohn describes as the best translation of anything, ever. I barely scratched the surface of the book, but reading it threw up some possibilities for podcasts – the idea of the journey in art and literature, translation as a creative endeavour perhaps, ancient tradition of oral/improvised storytelling. And then of course there’s film, which is why I thought immediately of the wonderful Performance Anxiety podcast, and sought the help of Alex Dale and Maren Thom. So we agreed a show based on simply comparing films wouldn’t be the best approach, and I was scratching my head to find films that might give us something to work with. I carried on reading, carried on thinking, then I stumbled upon Le Mépris, Godard’s film that, per chance, seemed to address both my original question and theirs (which we talk about in the podcast). Godard’s film is centred on an ambitious young playwright who is invited, or perhaps enticed to become involved in a production of the Odyssey (to be shot on the island of Capri) by the film’s brash American producer, who wants a blockbuster and thinks the current director, Fritz Lang (playing himself), is making some incomprehensible European arthouse cinema. But that’s the starting point for the film, which then becomes about the playwright’s relationship with his beautiful and enigmatic wife, played by Brigitte Bardot. We thought that Le Mépris might provide us with an ideal opportunity to talk about the creative process of the filmmaker, and ask if maybe Godard was trying to find ways to express truths – symbolic or moral etc. – from the Odyssey that maybe a more straightforward telling might not. Finally, we discuss some of the themes in Maren’s recent article about pre-release criticisms of Christopher Nolan’s film of the Odyssey, and look forward to the r