A Bone to Pick with Jon Klassen

As previously documented in these missives, after my second child was born, I fell apart. I didn’t want to be around family or friends. All the joy had been sucked out of my life. It took me months to call it what it was: depression. When I looked for answers, I found none. Because no one was asking how dads were doing. I didn’t know then what I know now: my life wasn’t just going through a fundamental shift—my body was, too. My hormones were changing. My brain was reshaping itself around my son. And nobody told me this because, back in the hazy days of 2019, no one was asking those questions. Thankfully, things are changing. Researchers are finally putting dads under the microscope and into the MRI machine. What they’re finding would have helped me make sense of those early months, and could help the millions of men who become dads every year. Earlier this month, I spoke with one of the researchers leading that charge. Darby Saxbe is a professor of psychology at the University of Southern California and the author of Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men’s Lives. Darby has spent years studying dads’ brains and the changes that happen when we begin caring for the tiny humans we’ve invited into our lives. We’ll get into why that shrinking brain is really a renovation, why the research says that dad bod is for the best, and why you and your partner sink or swim together. This season of The New Fatherhood is presented by Matic. Matic was founded by two fathers who love technology and wanted to spend less time cleaning the house and more time playing with their kids. That’s about as on-brand for this newsletter as it gets. It’s a floor-cleaning robot that vacuums and mops on its own, builds a 3D map of your house using onboard cameras, and keeps all that data on the device rather than in the cloud. WIRED gave it a 10/10, the only perfect score their reviewer had given in over a decade. Readers of The New Fatherhood get a free annual bag pass; go to maticrobots.com/fatherhood and take vacuuming and mopping off your chore list. Subscribe to the Podcast Spotify Apple Podcasts YouTube Pocket Casts Where to Find Darby Saxbe Darby’s website Darby’s book Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men’s Lives Episode References The New Fatherhood Therapy Fund The New Fatherhood Mental Health Checkpoint—everything I’ve written about dads’ mental health can be found here Olly Murs’ before-and-after photos—the viral moment that proved the dad bod has fans The 7 Up series—the British longitudinal documentary that’s just wrapped at 70, and the inspiration for Darby’s seven-year follow-up study Boyhood—Richard Linklater’s twelve-years-in-the-making film The Aka and Kipsigis tribes—how fatherhood varies by culture Timestamps 0:00 — Intro2:38 — The daughter of a divorced dad8:32 — A shrinking, more efficient brain10:05 — Animal dads14:06 — Culture shapes fatherhood20:32 — Dad bods23:43 — Myth: Testosterone equals masculinity33:11 — Diaper changes across the generations36:36 — GenZ dads, neo-trad dads41:39 — Maternal gatekeeping and weaponized incompetence47:00 — Adolescence is dad’s time to shine47:45 — Depression and anxiety, mental health, is real for dads Credits Host: Kevin Maguire Managing Producer: Elizabeth Van Brocklin Sound Editor: Sam Williams Theme Music: SOHN

Welcome back to season three of The New Fatherhood podcast. Life with children can often feel overwhelming. And, in a way, that’s what this episode is all about. But before you hit play, I have to confess something. This interview was recorded three years ago. Not last month. Not over the summer. Three years ago, I sat down with a writer and father of three Jesse J Anderson, also known as ADHD Jesse. I asked him everything I could think of about ADHD and came away from that conversation promising myself that I was going to book myself an assessment to find out if I had ADHD too. And then I did nothing. For three years. Why? Because nothing was on fire. There was no deadline. Nobody was waiting on it. Jesse was generous with his time and his experience, and I repaid him by leaving our conversation in edit purgatory for years. I’ve always struggled to understand my relationship with effort and output. I’ve been writing the newsletter, almost weekly, for five years. I wrote a book. I’ve read every productivity book there is. I built systems for everything. But somewhere in my thirties it started to dawn on me that they weren’t systems at all—they were coping mechanisms. Scaffolding I’d built around something I couldn’t see and had never named. Here’s what my life actually looks like behind the curtain: I can’t start anything without a deadline thundering towards me. The newsletter goes out once a week, and that’s the only reason it goes out at all. I’m terrified of being told no in a way that is completely out of proportion. There’s a name for this, you’ll hear Jesse explain it, and when I first came across it I had to close my laptop to go for a walk. It’s why I can spend years writing a book and then find it almost physically impossible to send an email that tells anyone it exists. There’s a gap I think about a lot. And it isn’t the gap between being a good dad and a bad one. But the gap between the dad you are, in your worst moment, and the one you aspire to be. We treat that gap as a character flaw. But what if it isn’t? What if something has always been there, invisible, pulling the strings—and you’ve spent forty years blaming yourself? Jesse knows all about that gap. In this episode, you’ll hear us talking about t-shirt tags and lunchtime detention. About the four things that actually motivate the ADHD brain, and why “because it’s important” isn’t one of them. And we talk about watching your own kid struggle with the same things you struggle with, and how it feels to know precisely what’s coming. Make sure to listen to the end, because when this is over, I’ll tell you what happened when I finally did the thing I promised all those years ago. This season of The New Fatherhood is presented by Matic. Matic was founded by two fathers who love technology and wanted to spend less time cleaning the house and more time playing with their kids. That’s about as on-brand for this newsletter as it gets. It’s a floor-cleaning robot that vacuums and mops on its own, builds a 3D map of your house using cameras on board, and keeps all that data on the device rather than in the cloud. WIRED gave it a 10/10, the only perfect score their reviewer had given in over a decade. Readers of The New Fatherhood get a free annual bag pass; go to maticrobots.com/fatherhood and take vacuuming and mopping off your chore list. Subscribe to the Podcast Spotify Apple Podcasts YouTube Pocket Casts Where to Find Jesse * Extra Focus newsletter at extrafocus.com * Extra Focus: The Quick Start Guide to Adult ADHD at extrafocusbook.com Episode References * Oliver Burkeman TNF episode on productivity * Dr William Dodson’s interest-based nervous system (NICU framework) * Jesse’s Four Cs of Motivation * An introduction to rejection sensitive dysphoria * Edward Hallowell’s theory on recognition euphoria * Superparenting for ADD by Edward M. Hallowell and Peter S. Jensen Timecodes 0:00 — intro: why this episode is three years late 5:04 — getting diagnosed at 36 8:00

We all carry around an idea of success—the job promotion we crave, the car that’ll make strangers on the street crane their necks in jealousy, the beautiful house that turns visitors quiet as they walk through the front door. Fewer ask where these ideas come from. Mostly, they’re absorbed from our parents, from culture, and from the other dads we compare ourselves to without meaning to. We spend our lives chasing these ghosts. But nobody warns you what’s on the other side—what might happen if you get everything you wanted and end up feeling hollow. For this month’s podcast, I sat down with my good friend Toph—known to the rest of the world as SOHN, the British artist and producer behind the albums Tremors and Trust. SOHN signed a record deal with 4AD, played Coachella and the late-night US TV circuit, and has spent well over a decade living the “artist dream” while raising three boys. Six years ago, we met in the lift of a Barcelona hotel, and eventually bonded over something neither of us saw coming: an episode of depression after the birth of our second child. We pulled each other through that dark time, with long walks and honest conversations. Just before the launch of his fourth album Albadas (Dawn Songs), we sat down in his studio to talk about all of it. This is the most honest conversation about success, money and creative identity I’ve ever heard from a dad in the public eye. We talk about his five-year creative block, the album that only arrived when he stopped writing as SOHN and started writing as a dad, what it does to your head when your creative output is tied to the food you put on your kids’ plates—and why, when what he was chasing turned out to be a trap, he sold the dream house, killed the ego he’d spent so long protecting, and started again. Listen and Subscribe On … Spotify Apple Podcasts YouTube Pocket Casts Where to Find SOHN * SOHN’s website * His new ambient album Albadas (Dawn Songs)—stream it everywhere or grab the limited vinyl/CD on Bandcamp * Trust—the album we discuss throughout, drenched in themes of fatherhood * Follow him on Instagram Episode References * Trust (2022)—SOHN’s third album, written after a five-year block * Tremors (2014) and “The Wheel”—where the world first heard SOHN * The Streets—the Mike Skinner problem: what do you write about when the drama’s gone? * Oasis, Be Here Now—the Rolls-Royce in the swimming pool * Elliott Smith and Nick Drake—and the myth of great art made in depression * Kevin’s essay: “How to Raise Tiny Humans Without Losing Your Mind”—The Tunnel, and coming out of it at five years Timestamps 0:00 — a new definition of success 0:46 — a conversation between good friends 2:01 — the fantasy of the artistic dream 4:14 — neck pain and stress 7:09 — what shocked SOHN about fatherhood: patience, autonomy, silence 8:50 — from one kid to two kids 12:58 — paternal postnatal depression 14:51 — great artist vs. stable force: the identity collision 18:44 — the five-year creative block 20:42 — having nothing to say 22:26 — Tundra, the record nobody heard 24:20 — early struggling musician days 25:06 — the buffet of success 27:57 — signing with the guy whose music he hated 31:52 — losing the compass 33:42 — depression as a weather system 35:13 — the myth of making great art while depressed 36:51 — at peace with the kids, at war with yourself 39:28 — the head f**k of creative money: “we’re screwed” to “we’re rich” overnight 44:04 — selling the dream house 47:27 — imposter syndrome 49:25 — Trust: giving up as a creative strategy 53:39 — when the fears came true 55:39 — the ego death journey 58:33 — listen up, parents: it gets easier 1:00:34 — where are all my friends? 1:05:34 — alternative to climbing the social ladder 1:07:03 — three boys watch their dad on stage Credits Host: Kevin Maguire Managing Producer: Elizabeth Van Brocklin Sound Editor: Sam Williams Theme Music: SOHN

For a hundred years, parents attempting to undertake creative endeavours have had a ready-made excuse, courtesy of Cyril Connolly: “The enemy of art is the pram in the hall.” Kids, the thinking goes, are where creativity goes to die. But Austin Kleon thinks Connolly got it exactly backwards. This month on the podcast, I sat down with Austin—author of the New York Times bestselling trilogy Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work and Keep Going—to talk about his new book, Don’t Call It Art: 10 Ways to Create Like a Kid Again. This book is a love letter to his two sons, and a collection of everything they taught him about creativity. Austin spent his career helping people tap into their creative potential, Then his kids arrived, and he realised he wasn’t the teacher anymore. He was, in his words, “the apprentice to the beginners,” the studio assistant in his own home, saving the drawings, keeping the paper trail, and watching two small artists figure out how to “let it rip.” We talk about why children aren’t an obstacle to your creative life but an opportunity for it to grow, the gentle art of benevolent neglect, and how watching your kids create might be the best way to quiet your own inner critic—and re-parent the artist you used to be. Subscribe to the Podcast * Spotify * Apple Podcasts * YouTube * Pocket Casts Where to Find Austin Kleon * Buy Don’t Call it Art * Read his blog, especially the parenting tag * Subscribe to his newsletter * Follow him on Instagram Episode References Books & Essays * The Element: How Finding Your Passion Changes Everything by Sir Ken Robinson * The Idle Parent Manifesto by Tom Hodgkinson * Bringing Up Bebe by Pamela Druckerman * Several Short Sentences About Writing by Verlyn Klinkenborg * 100 Essays I Don’t Have Time To Write by Sarah Ruhl * The Argonauts by Maggie Nelson * Hold Still: A Memoir with Photographs by Sally Mann * Playing With My Son by Andy Baio * Heidi’s Horse by Sylvia Fein * American Elf by James Kochalka Featured Artists, Musicians & Innovators * John Baldessari – The legendary conceptual artist whose revolutionary “Post-Studio Art” teaching style shaped a generation of creators. * Creative Growth: Childhood to Maturity at MoMA – The historic 1939 solo exhibition tracking artist Dahlov Ipcar’s development from a young child to an adult. * Lynda Barry – The MacArthur-winning cartoonist, author of What It Is, and professor of interdisciplinary creativity. * Ruth Asawa – The brilliant San Francisco wire sculptor who believed art education should be accessible to all children. * Eleanor Coppola – The visionary documentary filmmaker who beautifully balanced her own creative life alongside an iconic filmmaking family. * Brian Eno – The experimental ambient music pioneer whose philosophy centers on answering the ultimate creative question: “What is it that I actually like?” * Michel de Montaigne – The Renaissance essayist whose father instituted a spartan pedagogical plan, including raises with peasants and learning Latin as a first language. Misc * Cyril Connolly’s “Pram in the Hall” * Jeff Tweedy on Making Art without Control Timestamps 0:00 — welcome to this episode 03:59 — advice for a first-time author 06:45 — Austin's houseful of weirdos in Austin, Texas 08:03 — bottling the energy of two little kids 10:36 — growing up in rural Ohio cornfields 17:45 — Owen's magic line 23:50 — being your kids' apprentice 27:17 — young parents, keep a dairy 36:00 — kids know what they like 40:56 — scarcity vs. abundant fatherhood 42:36 — read some mother artist memoirs 47:17 — kids as a source of creative energy 47:52 — go to therapy before you have kids Credits Host: Kevin Maguire Managing Producer: Elizabeth Van Brocklin Sound Editor: Sam Williams Theme Music: SOHN

We've all been told that anger is a problem—something to control, suppress, or apologise for. But what if the real problem isn't that we have too much anger, but that we have no idea what to do with it? This month on the podcast, I sat down with Sam Parker—senior editor at British GQ and author of Good Anger: How Rethinking Rage Can Change Our Lives—to dig into why so many fathers have a broken relationship with this most fundamental emotion. Sam argues that anger isn't the enemy. Aggression is. And that learning to feel anger without shame or fear might be one of the most important things we can do—for ourselves, our partners, and our kids. We talk about the moment each of us realised we'd been burying our anger for decades, what happens in your body when a boundary gets crossed, and why repairing after you've lost your temper matters more than never losing it in the first place. Subscribe to the Podcast Spotify Apple Podcasts YouTube Pocket Casts Where to Find Sam Parker Sam's website Find Sam’s book Good Anger on Amazon and Bookshop.org The Good Father newsletter on Substack Episode References The Whole-Brain Child by Daniel J. Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson The Gottman Institute: The Four Horsemen Kevin's essay: "Where's My Jenny?" The New Fatherhood Therapy Fund Inside Out (Pixar, 2015) Timestamps 00:00 — welcome to the anger episode 03:39 — meet Sam's family: Jessie, baby Olive, and life in Kent 04:32 — rethinking what anger is for 05:18 — when anger gets swept under the carpet 06:15 — suppression vs. aggression: the anger problem nobody talks about 07:10 — the "I don't really get angry" myth 9:49 — anger does not have to equal violence 12:39 — how anger can manifest in the body 14:06 — what is "good anger"? 14:48 — the discomfort caveat 17:45 — Sam's boxing breakthrough 19:11 — anger can be clarifying 20:44 — how anger hijacks the brain 27:50 — managing anger between siblings 33:05 — getting mad near a newborn 39:00 — dad's role was disciplinarian 42:24 — resentment as anger's cousin