Show Notes
In this episode of the Explaining History Podcast, we are joined by Sam Parry of Cardiff Metropolitan University to discuss the concept of stateless nations – nations that have not achieved nation-state status for complex historical reasons.
We focus on three examples: Wales, Catalonia, and the Mezzogiorno – the southern half of Italy. Due to technical difficulties, some material was lost, but the conversation remains rich in insight into how national identities form, change, and sometimes fade.
Sam argues that Britishness is a nationalism of institutions – drawing on Raymond Williams's idea that Britishness is the NHS, the coal board, the steel board, Royal Mail, Marks and Spencer. Many of those institutions are now gone or going. With the loss of empire and the erosion of social institutions, what is left of Britishness? This is a question the state has not grappled with.
We explore how Welsh nationalism grew after the 1950s – not as part of the decolonial movement, but as a response to economic change and the realisation that Britain's hegemonic position in the world had shifted. The Thatcherite revolution eroded key markers of national identity while simultaneously promoting a reactionary xenophobic nationalism. The two – libertarian capitalism and cultural nationalism – will devour each other.
The conversation then turns to Catalonia, which Sam uses as a foil to Wales and the Mezzogiorno. Catalonia is a wealthy region that has not made the step to nation-state status. We trace its history from the marriage of Aragon and Castile in 1469, through the Bourbon reforms that gave Catalonia access to American markets (at the cost of its own laws), to the disaster of 1898 and the rise of Primo de Rivera. The Catalan bourgeoisie consistently chose class over nation – supporting Spanish dictatorship to quell its own radical working class. This in turn created a more radical Catalan nationalism, which was suppressed by Francoism.
Now, Catalonia sees the growth of a far-right Catalan nationalism – neo-fascist in character – alongside the traditional left-wing and democratic expressions of Catalan identity. The idea that "to be Catalan is to be left-wing and democratic" has deep roots, going back to the French Revolution's fusion of nation and citizenship.
**Topics covered:** - Stateless nations and the question of nation-state status - Britishness as a nationalism of institutions - Raymond Williams and the institutional markers of identity - The erosion of Britishness under Thatcherism - Welsh nationalism and economic change - Catalonia's historical path and missed opportunities - The Catalan bourgeoisie choosing class over nation - The radicalisation of Catalan nationalism - The far-right turn in contemporary Catalan nationalism - National identity as political identity
*Sam Parry's Nations without States is published by University of Wales Press and is available in the US through the University of Chicago, it's also available to order from all good bookshops. Please consider buying from an independent retailer or directly from the publisher. Explaining History helps you understand the 20th Century through critical conversations and expert interviews. We connect the past to the present. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and share. ▸ Support the Show & Get Exclusive Content Become a Patron: patreon.com/explaininghistory ▸ Join the Community & Continue the Conversation Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/ExplainingHistoryPodcast Substack: theexplaininghistorypodcast.substack.com ▸ Read Articles & Go Deeper Website: explaininghistory.org
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