Queering EMDR Therapy with Roshni Chabra, Lisa Hayes, and Mish Kumar-Jonson | Notice That
Notice ThatShow Notes
The eight-phase protocol was built to be learned, practiced, and trusted — and most of us were trained to hold it carefully. This conversation asks what happens when careful hardens into rigid. Bridger and Jen sit down with three voices from the new anthology Queering EMDR Therapy — editor Roshni Chabra, LMFT, alongside contributors Lisa Hayes, LISW-S, and Mish Kumar-Jonson — for a conversation that has been a year in the making, about what it means to queer EMDR: not a technique to add in phases four through seven, but a lens that runs from before phase one to after phase eight. Together they take apart the ideas most of us absorbed without ever being asked to examine them. That the ideal therapist is a blank slate. That neutrality is kindness. That adaptive information looks the same for every nervous system. That some clients are "special populations" who need a deviation from the standard. In their place, the guests offer something warmer and more precise: belonging as clinical ("who can sit next to you quietly after a hard session?"), resourcing that reaches for ancestors and community ("what if you saw yourself through your ancestors' eyes rather than the colonial gaze?"), and healing defined by the client — your favorite self, self-determined — rather than by adjustment to the world as it is. Along the way: what to do when the trauma you're treating is ongoing and the client walks out of session into the next headline, why "you'll absolutely make mistakes" is better clinical preparation than pronoun paralysis, how to repair a misgendering without asking the client to take care of you, and the question underneath the whole conversation — who created the standard, and who gets to decide what healing looks like? The book, with 26 contributors spanning chapters, poetry, art, and a graphic novel, is available now. In this episode Roshni Chabra, LMFT (she/her) — editor of Queering EMDR Therapy, founder of Lavender Healing Collective in Long Beach, and an EMDR trainer — joins with two of the book's contributors: Lisa Hayes, MSW, LISW-S (she/her), a Columbus, Ohio clinician and EMDR trainer who directs an EMDR training program built by and for BIPOC clinicians, and Mish Kumar-Jonson (they/them), an EMDR consultant in Naarm/Melbourne working in a neurodivergent, community-led practice. The book gathers 26 contributors — chapters, poetry, art, even a graphic novel — and this conversation carries its central move into the session room: queering as a lens for the whole of EMDR, not a checklist for part of it. Key themes Queering is a lens, not a checklist. Each guest defines it differently on purpose — there is no single definition that serves all people in all situations. For Lisa, it's navigating outside dominant normative spaces whose restriction functions as silencing — and finding a path toward liberation and authentic engagement. For Mish, it's contextual and political: resistance, joy, and authenticity inside a world not built for you. For Roshni, it comes from queer theory's reading practice — looking at anything from outside the default, which is a lens anyone can pick up, not only queer and trans clinicians. Healing is self-determined. Queering also asks who gets to decide what healing looks like. It is not "becoming functional capitalist members of society" — it's the client's own favorite self, which is not the same as a true self or core self someone else defines for them. It starts with the self of the therapist. Not another task for the protocol — a deconstruction of what we absorbed in training: the "therapist paragon," the blank slate, the gray rock. Lisa's chapter is deeply personal (her own EMDR work around the death of her mother), and what it modeled is the risk the whole book asks of clinicians: showing up as a human in professional space. Belonging is clinical. We don't experience trauma in a vacuum and we don't heal in one. The intake questions that follow: who knows you're doing EMDR therapy? Who can suppor
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Treatment planning for complex trauma works differently than planning for single-incident trauma. Instead of tracing one symptom back to one memory, the clinician maps a network: the before, during, and after of many connected experiences, and the identity structure the client built to survive them. This episode is the full audio from a free Beyond Healing Institute workshop in which Dr. Bridger Falkenstien and Jen Savage walk through the five-step process they use with complex trauma and C-PTSD presentations. The five steps 1. Identify the theme. A complex trauma theme is an identity structure, not a single negative cognition. It takes the form "I am ___ because ___, therefore I must ___," and it is built collaboratively in the client's own language. 2. Map the network. Past experiences, missing experiences (what the client needed and never got), current symptoms reframed as strategies, relational patterns including the therapeutic relationship, and strengths. 3. Sequence by distress. Theme-linked memories grouped into low (SUD 1 to 4), moderate (5 to 7), and high (8 to 10) bands, starting low to build tolerance and momentum. The "three doors." 4. Pendulate. Move between distress-focused and resource-focused work within and across sessions. In complex trauma, the window of tolerance is narrow on both sides, so clients need capacity for connection and resource as much as for distress. 5. Integrate. New responses with real people, a new felt sense outside the room, old expectations updated by new experience, and one small step in daily life each week. Integration starts in the first session. The framework draws on Somatic Integration and Processing (SIP), Beyond Healing's case conceptualization model, which looks at every case through three lenses: relationship (attachment and neurodevelopment), body (somatic psychology), and memory (adaptive information processing and memory reconsolidation). The case About two-thirds of the way through, Bridger and Jen present Cora, a composite client in her late twenties: autistic, diagnosed late after years of masking, raised in a high-control religious environment, sexually abused by a family member between ages nine and twelve, and disbelieved by her mother when she disclosed. In session she describes a memory she has never spoken aloud in a flat, precise voice and rates it a 2 out of 10 while the therapist's own body registers a 9. The workshop uses her case to show how a theme gets built, what resources fit that specific theme, and four low-distress entry points that could open the network without going straight to the abuse memories. Also covered - Why comprehensive trauma timelines can work against complex trauma clients, and what to do instead - Reframing symptoms as strategies and asking what each strategy still protects - What to do when a new crisis or a second theme shows up mid-treatment - Reading the therapist's own activation in the room without overriding the client's report Who this is for Therapists, counselors, and social workers working with complex trauma, C-PTSD, dissociation, and relational trauma, whether you use EMDR, TF-CBT, somatic approaches, or relational therapy. The planning process is modality-agnostic. Content note: this episode discusses childhood sexual abuse and dissociation in some clinical detail. This was recorded live on Zoom. You will hear references to slides, a Venn diagram, the chat, and a shared screen. The teaching holds without the visuals. For the slides, the recording, and the treatment planning worksheet walked through near the end: connectbeyondhealing.com/txp/?utm_source=nt&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=NT_ComplexTraumaPlanning_Therapists_Fall_2026 Upcoming from Beyond Healing Institute - Free workshop: The Case Beneath the Case, November 4, 12:00 to 1:30 pm Central: calendar.connectbeyondhealing.com/?utm_source=nt&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=NT_ComplexTraumaPlanning_Therapists_Fall_2026 - Somatic Integration and Processing training,
Recorded at the EMDRIA Conference 2026 in Anaheim, this conversation from the Notice That podcast's Notes from the Hall series features Ann Beckley-Forest, LCSW, RPT-S, on what has changed in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) therapy with children since her book came out, why the next edition leans into the parents in the room, and the pre-verbal trauma work she is most excited about now. If the biggest payoff is in the caregiver relationship, how do you lead a session with more than one nervous system in it? Ann Beckley-Forest, LCSW, RPT-S, is a Registered Play Therapist Supervisor based in Buffalo, New York, co-founder of Playful EMDR, and co-editor, with Annie Monaco, of EMDR with Children in the Play Therapy Room. Find her at annbeckleyforest.com. Ann is a returning guest, and she brings news she says she has not said publicly yet: Springer has asked for a second edition of the book. We talk about what the new edition will add (a chapter on neurodiversity, more population-specific chapters, updated research, and a chapter on targets related to racism, oppression, and diversity from two contributors she describes as very deep thinkers); why the heart of the new content is mobilizing caregivers and parents even when that is messy; what it takes to lead a session with multiple nervous systems in the room; the small European study of the EMDR storytelling method with children from birth to four that she found exciting enough to go get trained in an infant mental health play therapy model; the perinatal and early childhood summit she is planning with Mara Tesler Stein and Annie Monaco for September 2027 in Niagara-on-the-Lake; why she thinks community is the missing link for child therapists and what she tells anyone feeling anonymous at a 2,000-person conference; what Derek Farrell's keynote affirmed for "the kid people"; what it feels like to reread your own chapter six years on; and how she keeps the play in a high-pressure week (capes, mugs, a booth team, and a trip to Disneyland). Notes from the Hall is a 26-episode series from the Notice That podcast, recorded on the floor of the EMDRIA Conference 2026 in Anaheim — a window into the largest gathering of EMDR therapists in the United States, for everyone who was there and everyone who couldn't be. Hosted by Bridger Falkenstien and Jen Savage. Produced by Beyond Healing Media. Explore the full series at connectbeyondhealing.com. Ann's earlier conversation on Notice That: https://art19.com/shows/notice-that-an-emdr-podcast/episodes/7b8a5ee5-c7e1-47d4-897b-7f60e7ec89b9 Listen/watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/yXF0oeyVFfQ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
I'm an EMDR Therapist: Amanda Hearne on the First Year After Basic Training | Early Learner Basic training gives you the model. It can't give you the first year. That's the year where a lot of trained therapists quietly set EMDR down, and it's the year this conversation is about. Amanda Hearne got trained about five minutes after finishing her master's program and walked back into a domestic violence agency where nearly every client carried complex trauma. Eleven years later she's an EMDR Certified Therapist, an EMDRIA Approved Consultant-in-Training, and the voice behind @theemdrhealingpractice. Bridger and Jen sit down with her to talk about what held: a cohort that trained together, clients who could tolerate a therapist reading from a binder, and a decision about identity that changed everything downstream. This episode is part of our series for clinicians in their first year after EMDR Basic Training. IN THIS EPISODE - Getting trained straight out of grad school: the case for it, and the one honest con - Why empathy didn't feel like enough, and what a structured model gave a new therapist - The two things that buffered Amanda against never using EMDR: community and client trust - Walking in with the manual open, and letting clients know why - The twelve-to-twenty-session caseload, and why the full three-prong plan didn't fit - The recent event protocol, EMD, and why that is still EMDR - Capacity as the work, not the warm-up - The pressure to collect every advanced training right away, and why to hang tight - Consultation twice a month, and why CITs are a route worth knowing about - "Do you do EMDR?" "No, I'm an EMDR therapist." - The fear underneath "I'm still integrating it," and why no modality can satisfy it - Instagram, community after a move, and nurturing content for newly trained clinicians - Go with that, or notice that: the neon sign poll RESOURCES & LINKS Amanda Hearne — Live and Align Therapy: https://www.liveandaligntherapy.com/?utm_source=nt&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=NT_HearneFirstYear_Therapists_Fall_2026 Instagram: @theemdrhealingpractice Individual consultation and therapy (CA and TX): book through the Calendly on her site Mentioned in the episode: Recent Traumatic Episode Protocol (R-TEP), Elan Shapiro & Brurit Laub When There Are No Words, Sandra Paulsen Michelle Gottlieb, EMDR trainer and chronic pain specialist (Amanda's professor at Cal State Fullerton) Trauma Recovery/HAP (where Amanda's agency cohort trained) Lilly Risch — Burnout, Money, and Visibility with Lilly Risch | Notice That (the earlier episode on EMDR therapists and social media) The Relational Thread — Bridger & Jen's book and essay series: https://connectbeyondhealing.com/the-relational-thread/?utm_source=nt&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=relational_thread ABOUT NOTICE THAT Notice That is an EMDR podcast for therapists, counselors, and social workers, hosted by Bridger Falkenstien and Jen Savage, co-authors of EMDR and the Therapeutic Relationship: Reclaiming the Relational Thread. The show explores the real clinical practice of EMDR therapy: attachment, ego states, somatic processing, resourcing, complex trauma, and the relationship doing the work. Subscribe for conversations that treat both you and your clients as human. #EMDR #EMDRtherapist #EMDRbasictraining #NewTherapist #TraumaTherapy #TherapistsOfInstagram #NoticeThatPodcast #EarlyLearner See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
A couple of weeks ago, I cried in a therapy session. Not the quiet, contained tear that can still be folded into a professional nod. I mean cried. My client was reading me something she had written, and it struck me in a way I didn't anticipate. And underneath the emotion was another reaction entirely: This is so unprofessional. Pull it together. What would a supervisor say if they saw this? Most of the time I no longer organize my work around those rules. And still, in that moment, the ghosts of professors, supervisors, consultants, and old versions of professionalism surfaced almost intact. They had been quiet for a long time. They were not gone. This week's essay is about what we were taught to hide. When ethics is taught primarily through prohibition, we may not be teaching therapists how to practice ethically. We may be teaching them how to follow rules, and then how to feel shame when they find themselves outside them. Restraint can be an act of care. But somewhere along the way, restraint became confused with disappearance. The therapist doesn't stop being human because the session begins, so the question was never whether our humanity enters the room. It already has. The question is what we do with it once it's here. Along the way: the questions I wish more clinicians were taught to ask in the moment; why the same disclosure can be deeply useful with one client and intrusive with another; why we can outgrow a rule intellectually long before our bodies stop bracing around it; and why "therapists are human too" can become its own excuse. Being genuine and being uncontained are not the same thing. Read the essay and subscribe (free, one essay a week): https://www.relationalthread.com/podcast?utm_source=nt&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=TRT_EssayNN_Therapists_Summer_2026 The Relational Thread grows from the forthcoming book EMDR and the Therapeutic Relationship: Reclaiming the Relational Thread (2027) by Bridger Falkenstien & Jen Savage: https://connectbeyondhealing.com/the-relational-thread/?utm_source=nt&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=relational_thread Notice That is an EMDR podcast for therapists, counselors, and social workers, hosted by Bridger Falkenstien and Jen Savage. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
It's just the two of us this time. Bridger and Jen return to the model that sits underneath nearly everything we talk about on this podcast: Somatic Integration and Processing (SIP), Beyond Healing Institute's case conceptualization approach. Seven years and more than a thousand trained therapists in, we look at where SIP started, what has changed, and why it matters most at the stuck points in EMDR. We cover its three spheres (relationship, body, and memory) and the intersubjective space where they meet between therapist and client. Then we zoom in on one of the hardest stuck points: the SUD drops from a 9 to a 2, the client keeps answering your questions, and the activation is gone. We talk about why that moment usually doesn't call for another protocol or tool, and why the relationship itself can become the disconfirming experience. Stick around after we close for the full audio of the "What Is SIP?" case walkthrough, a composite case involving complex trauma, religious rigidity, and neurodivergence. In this episode The three spheres of SIP and why intersubjectivity matters so much How SIP has evolved as a living model over seven years Why a falling SUD with vanishing activation may not be progress Before, during, and after: seeing trauma, and in-session enactments, as patterns and not single moments Early attachment trauma and why the therapist can feel like the threat The "what do I do?" question, and why it works best after you zoom out Shared language for clients, colleagues, and ourselves Resources Watch the "What Is SIP?" video and download the free companion worksheet: connectbeyondhealing.com/sip SIP alumni can retake the training for free Upcoming trainings and workshops (calendar.connectbeyondhealing.com) SIP: When the Target Won't Move, our first training for Australia and New Zealand (8:30 PM to 1:30 AM Central) Enactment Focused EMDR: Nov 11, 12:30 to 4:30 PM Central AI in the Therapy Room: Dec 2, 9 AM to 1 PM Central EMDR and the Therapeutic Relationship: Dec 9, 12:30 to 4:30 PM Central EMDR and Grief: Jan 6, 12:30 to 4:30 PM Central Free workshops and longer CE workshops ($95) can be filtered on the course calendar. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.