Show Notes
This is the second of our tapes of Robin Parry’s interviews with Ilaria Ramelli in 2019 on behalf of Gospel Conversations. It focuses on the book that she had just then published, “A Larger Hope;Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich.” She does not summarise the book in a blow by blow way but rather gives us the big themes, which is really interesting. One of her stunning themes is that the whole Patristic theology was built on the foundation of Origen - without him, she says, Patristic thought would have collapsed. This does not mean they agreed with him wholeheartedly, anymore than great philosophers agreed with everything Aristotle said - but it does mean that Origen did for theology what Aristotle did for philosophy; he built a coherent foundation for it on which others could build. I have appended an introduction to help digest her arguments, and I also did something else in the intro - I read out some of the opening comments in the Foreword by Richard Bauckham. I think that this Foreword is pretty significant and a sign of the times because Bauckham, as far as I know is not a Universalist, but he is one of the most notable Biblical scholars in the world. Clearly he admires Ilaria a lot for her academic and intellectual credibility, and clearly he does not consider universal salvation a heresy, but rather a topic deserving of inquiry and one that is growing in interest rapidly. That is one of my major contentions - not so much that ‘universal salvation’ is ‘right’ (which I think it is) but rather that the Christian church has become increasingly dogmatic on too many topics that are consequences of our core beliefs not intrinsic to them. As a result a lot of Christian cultures are not very attractive to seeking people - or doubting and inquiring Christians. Dogmatism paints everything into black and white categories, so it does not leave any grey space for ambiguity and discussion. Actually let me go further - the ‘grey’ space is where we grow. Dogma gives us the landscape and the borders of our inquiry, but inquiry into grey space is where we go deeper into the forest of our faith and start to see the depth, texture and nuances. So I applaud the open mindedness of Bauckham and really sense that people like him are opening up the grey space for us all. I also finish off Ilaria’s talk with a postscript in which I announce that - quite concidentally - I have stumbled across a great talk by Robin recently which he has give us permission to post on Gospel Conversations. We will post it next. Robin’s talk is really instructive on the topic of grey space because he traces the different pathways that led some significant evangelical thought leaders of the last few centuries to embrace Universal Salvation. Like all of Robin’s material, it is a delightful mix of erudition and calm intellect all expressed in accessible language.
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Well we have finally reached the end of our long, long journey on the Camino (though we are adding an epilogue of four days walking to the sea - Fisterra by the Atlantic). 779kms and 36 days of walking across all kinds of terrain, weather and meeting lots of people on different kinds of journey. It was actually quite emotional to walk into the huge square of Santiago and give each other a hug and shed a few tears of joy - and relief!
This interview, hosted by Leisa Aitken, is part of our series, ‘Women as thought leaders in theology.’ It is with the brilliant and deeply pastoral Oxford based clinical psychologist, Anglican priest and theologian Reverend Dr Joanna Collicutt McGrath. We discuss her recent book, So Longeth my soul: A reader in Christian spirituality. Joanna wrote it for those needing an accessible introduction to reading the primary sources of spiritual writings through history, with excerpts from a range of profound Christian writers from 2nd to 19th century. Joanna’s interdisciplinary thinking and knowledge of church history is rich and insightful. During this interview we explore a range of topics, including the universal themes of loss and longing, constraints that female spiritual writers in history experienced, and the topic of her second PhD; the role of the visual arts and visual imagery in understanding the scriptures. We hope you are inspired to read this superb book and so find fellowship with Christians through the ages whose souls, like ours, have longed for God.
This is our second Breakfast with Jesus on our Camino walk - now over 600kms into it! This chat was recorded after we had climbed into the Galicia mountains and saw the awe-inspiring views from the high point of the ancient village of O Cebreiro. So it was fitting that we discussed Psalm 8 in this context - the succinct mandate for a human centred cosmos! Our first chat covered creation-as-providence in Psalm 145 - but Psalm 8 takes this providential view of creation one huge step further and charts the role of humanity in this created order. And it is a breathtaking calling as mini-gods - or a ‘little lower than gods’ - crowned with glory and honour. Of course this leads to the epic second chapter of Hebrews which takes this Psalm as the vision for the high calling of what it means to be a human being. A vision that is only fulfilled in Jesus. We want to capture the exploratory way we discuss the Scripture so this chat, like the last one, is unscripted and it wanders like our conversations. We pose questions - and explore possibilities. But it is all anchored around a text. And we use a theologian we like to stimulate and guide our thinking, although we don’t slavishly follow their thinking. I think this is how the Spirit wants us to work with Scripture: not as excavating the ‘right’ meaning, but rather as interpreting it into our lives and thoughts today. Hope you enjoy it.
Anne and I are walking the vast Camino path - about 800km from St Jean in France to Santiago in Spain. We thought it would be a good time to revive our ‘Breakfast with Jesus’ channel in Gospel Conversations. And rather than just me doing the talking, we have recorded this as a conversation to try to capture the reality of how we are walking and talking. This chat is about Psalm 145. But it begins with Anne talking about some of her spiritual journey over the last few years - and how some significant physical suffering has (mysteriously) precipitated a deeper faith journey in her spirit. We also explain how we use some resources to guide our discussions - in this case the wonderful Walter Bruggemann on the Psalms. (‘The Message of the Psalms”). And we did an unscripted conversation in this talk - which captures the exploratory way we read and talk together in our morning devotions. A real conversation explores and that means it surprises, with its twists and turns and questions and alleyways. So that is what you get in this ‘talk’. In a real way this conversation illustrates what Ben Myers talked about in his recent talk on how the Bible’s ‘inspiration’ works. According to Ben, the biblical text is not a set in concrete version of the truth but rather a divine stimulus to get us thinking and talking - which means that the modern reader experience is somehow part of the ‘inspiration’. Of course, that brings the Holy Spirit into view as always working - from the initial authorship to the modern day reading. So our humble little conversation, with all its pauses and meanderings, is a picture of that ‘reading’ inspiration at work - on Psalm 145. We hope you join us in enjoying this little journey.
Inspiration and Scripture is a two way process - it includes our reading of scripture not just its delivery through authors. That is the fascinating perspective that Ben Myers offers in this thought provoking interview I did with him recently. It builds on Mark Strom’s recent talk on his journey through a widening perspective on what ‘Scripture’ means. Ben begins with the opening of Erich Auerbach’s famous book on Western Literature, Mimesis. Auerbach contrasts Homer and Moses - in particular the story of Abraham in Genesis 22. He says that Moses’ narrative is deep and mysterious, in contrast to Homer which is shallower and eloquent. For Ben (and Auerbach) this suggests the unique way that Scripture works - as in invitation to the reader to enter the text and start a conversation with God about what is going on. The picture that emerges from Ben’s ideas is really important for us today. It defies the view that Scripture is a flat text with clear and precise meaning which we are called to excavate. Rather the scripture is like a deep ocean with the surface visible but the depths hidden and attractive. So in this view our ‘reading’ is part of the inspiration process. Enjoy this talk. Between Mark and Ben, they offer rich depth to the idea of what ‘scripture’ and ‘inspiration’ mean.