Episode 206: Buildings Are Not Neutral: How Cultural Spaces Shape Our Lives - with David van der Leer

Artist Refik Anadol joins Heidi Zuckerman for a conversation about art, nature, memory, imagination, and the new forms of creativity made possible through technology. Refik describes data as an artistic material—a way of giving form to memories and information that would otherwise remain invisible. He and Heidi talk about his early fascination with computers, his desire to make the invisible visible, and the role dreaming and imagination play in his work. Their conversation moves deeply into the natural world. Refik shares his experiences with the Yawanawa people in the Amazon and a profound idea offered to him there: for them, nature is their AI—a living intelligence humans have not yet fully understood. He considers whether technology might now help us listen more closely to the natural world rather than move further away from it. They also discuss an extinct Hawaiian bird whose final recorded song appears in DATALAND, his personal connection to memory after losing his uncle to Alzheimer’s, what it means to collaborate with a machine, and the responsibility artists have to help us see differently. At the center of Refik’s work is a belief in art’s ability to transform perception—and his hope that what we make can leave meaningful memories behind.

Ryan Stanier joins Heidi Zuckerman for a conversation about access, permission, play, and what happens when we question the ways people have traditionally encountered art. Ryan founded The Other Art Fair after watching artist friends struggle to find meaningful opportunities to show and sell their work. After 15 years and 100 fairs, he stepped away and eventually began asking what he would do differently if he started again. His answer is Fair Play, a new artist-led fair built around a different economic model and a belief that encountering art can also be social, surprising, and fun. Ryan and Heidi talk about why galleries and art fairs can still feel intimidating, how to break down barriers to entry, and the difference between telling people they are welcome and creating an environment in which they actually feel free to participate. They also share stories about nudity, tattoos, defacing art, unexpected experiences, and the importance of creating spaces for adults to play.

Artist Rashid Johnson joins Heidi Zuckerman for a deeply personal conversation shaped by their long friendship and history of collaboration. They talk about the difference between doing and being, and Rashid’s growing belief in the importance of becoming what he calls a “pauser”—someone willing to make room for patience, reflection, and even idleness in a culture that continually rewards action. Rashid reflects on success and the difficulty of allowing ourselves to acknowledge when we are genuinely good at something. He questions the performance of humility and considers honesty as a more useful measure: being able to recognize both what we do well and where we fall short. Their conversation moves through anxiety, freedom, peace, joy, regret, failure, middle age, parenthood, and love. Rashid talks about learning to understand anxiety as a tool rather than simply a condition, why joy feels more achievable to him than happiness, and why love and peace contain far more complexity and rigor than we sometimes allow them. They also discuss Casa Gràcia, the residency Rashid helped create in Menorca, and what becomes possible when artists and writers are given time and space without the expectation of producing an outcome.

Chloë Catán is the executive director of the Lassonde Art Trail, a public art experience set within the landscape of Toronto’s new island and waterfront park.

Heidi Zuckerman speaks with artist Danielle McKinney, whose intimate paintings depict women absorbed in moments of reflection, rest, reading, music, and contemplation.