The One Where HR Focuses on the Levers That Matter with Marc Effron

When organisations need new capabilities, the default answer has increasingly become: hire it. But what are we losing by not building it? In this episode of the Systemic Talent Management Podcast, Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal are joined by Peter Cappelli, George W. Taylor Professor of Management at The Wharton School and Director of Wharton’s Center for Human Resources, to explore why organisations have moved away from developing people internally and towards a model of buying talent when they need it. Peter argues that the shift was driven not simply by changing business needs, but by a growing reluctance to invest in development, an increasing reliance on managers who have neither the time nor the skills to develop people, and a fixation on short-term cost reduction. The conversation challenges the assumption that hiring is the answer, explores whether technology is actually making recruitment better, and asks what it would take for HR to stop trying to predict an uncertain future and start managing it more effectively. About Our Guest Peter Cappelli is the George W. Taylor Professor of Management at The Wharton School and Director of Wharton’s Center for Human Resources. He has been recognised by HR Magazine as one of the world’s top management thinkers. His research and writing have shaped thinking on talent management, hiring, workforce development and employment, with his work appearing in publications including Harvard Business Review and The Wall Street Journal. Episode Soundbite “We have to start thinking about managing uncertainty rather than assuming it away.” - Peter Cappelli Timestamps 00:00 Episode preview: Why organisations stopped building talent 01:51 Peter’s journey into the study of work and employment 07:02 How talent acquisition eclipsed talent management 08:43 Why organisations stopped developing talent internally 13:36 Why great individual contributors don’t always make great managers 16:10 What candidates really think about AI recruitment 23:16 Rethinking hiring in a rapidly changing world 26:19 The problem with “culture fit” 29:35 Managing uncertainty through scenarios and small bets 34:13 What HR analytics should actually measure 36:21 Why learning by doing matters 40:42 The biggest opportunity for talent management 42:12 Why HR needs to challenge senior leaders Follow and Listen Peter Cappelli: LinkedIn Profile David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn Profile Riddhika Khoosal:LinkedIn Profile Subscribe: New episodes released fortnightly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

What if the core HR practices you rely on to drive organisational success are based on unexamined assumptions rather than solid evidence? In this episode of the Systemic Talent Management Podcast, Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal sit down with Professor Rob Briner (Queen Mary University of London & Corporate Research Forum) to explore what happens when HR grounds its decisions in evidence. Rob examines why popular practices, from performance appraisals to Tuckman's model and change curves, fail under scientific scrutiny. Together, they unpack how linear thinking and a bias towards immediate action often prevent organisations from diagnosing the real problems. Rob outlines a practical framework for evidence-based practice, urging HR leaders to slow down, clear the decks of misleading beliefs, and make decisions using multiple sources of structured data. About Our Guest Rob Briner is Professor of Organisational Psychology at Queen Mary University of London and Research Director at Corporate Research Forum. For nearly three decades, he has championed Evidence-Based Practice across HRM, management, and work psychology. He leads CRF’s Work Psychology Network and regularly publishes critical reviews examining popular workplace claims (e.g learning styles, psychological safety, growth mindset) to evaluate whether they are backed by scientific evidence. Episode Soundbite “To be evidence-based in any field, from medicine to policing to management, a really important first point is to try and clear the decks... and challenge quite a few assumptions that we make about the issues and problems we're dealing with.” - Prof. Rob Briner Timestamps 00:00 Episode preview: Why evidence-based HR starts with clearing the decks 01:13 Welcome & Guest Introduction 03:10 Beyond linear thinking: Why evidence-based HR requires multiple sources 06:00 - Challenging HR myths: Performance appraisals & change curves 07:31 The engagement myth: Why attitudes don't directly drive performance 09:44 The teamwork myth: Why pseudo-teams fail to deliver expected results 11:05 The deliverables myth: Why individual deliverables don't guarantee organisational performance 13:25 Questioning pseudoscience: Tuckman, Maslow, & Kübler-Ross 17:02 Clearing the decks, challenging assumptions, & recognising bias 21:14 Diagnosing the real problem before jumping to solutions 37:39 Why teams don't always create better performance 44:43 The courage to stop ineffective practices & challenge leaders 47:21 What the research shows about predictors of performance 53:04 Closing thoughts Follow and Listen Prof. Rob Briner: LinkedIn | Corporate Research Forum ([email protected]) Prof. David Clutterbuck: LinkedIn Riddhika Khoosal: LinkedIn

What if the feedback systems you rely on to help your people grow are actually making their performance worse?

Does the world need HR? Absolutely. Does it need HR in the way it exists today? Probably not.

In a world that has grown complex, human, and deeply unpredictable, why are most organisations still running on linear HR models? In this introductory episode, co-hosts Professor David Clutterbuck and Riddhika Khoosal launch The Systemic Talent Management Podcast to address the fundamental gap between static corporate processes and complex organisational reality. Unpacking the limits of command-and-control leadership, how quick-fix cultures stall real progress, and why HR must step up to educate decision-makers to view the organisation systemically, David and Riddhika set the stage for an evidence-based journey toward making organisations more agile, transparent, and human-centered.