The Shape of Dialogue

Mātauranga Māori with Charles Royal - The Shape of Dialogue Podcast #14

The Shape of Dialogue

Show Notes

About Charles Royal - http://www.charles-royal.nz/ In 2021, 7 University of Auckland professors penned a letter to the editor in the Listener, titled In Defence of Science. The professors' were responding to a Government education report (link below), recommending parity for Mātauranga Māori in the secondary school curriculum, and in particular, in the science classroom. The report states: ”Our goal is to ensure parity for mātauranga Māori with the other bodies of knowledge credentialed by NCEA (particularly Western/Pākehā epistemologies)." The report also states: "Philosophy and History of Science is a unique strand in Pūtaiao [Māori word for Science], with no equivalent in the New Zealand Curriculum. It promotes discussion and analysis of the ways in which science has been used to support the dominance of Eurocentric views (among which, its use as a rationale for colonisation of Māori and the suppression of Māori knowledge); and the notion that science is a Western European invention and itself evidence of European dominance over Māori and other indigenous peoples. Pūtaiao allows opportunities to incorporate Māori perspectives and knowledge about the natural world into the classroom. In this regard, it decentres Western epistemologies and methodologies." The professors' were concerned by "the disturbing misunderstandings of science emerging at all levels of education and in science funding", which they state encourages a mistrust of science, in the context of the decline in maths and science achievements in New Zealand schools, particularly by Māori and Pacific Islanders. Their letter stated: "Indigenous knowledge is critical for the preservation and perpetuation of culture and local practices, and plays key roles in management and policy. However, in the discovery of empirical, universal truths, it falls far short of what we can define as science itself. To accept it as the equivalent of science is to patronise and fail indigenous populations; better to ensure that everyone participates in the world's scientific enterprises. Indigenous knowledge may indeed help advance scientific knowledge in some ways, but it is not science". The reaction to the "In Defence of Science" by the University of Auckland, the Royal Society of New Zealand Te Apārangi, the Tertiary Education Union, and the New Zealand Association of Scientists was not positive, see links NZ Herald - Scientists rubbish Auckland University professors' letter claiming Māori knowledge is not science https://tinyurl.com/2p8v2h9s RNZ - University academics' claim mātauranga Māori 'not science' sparks controversy https://tinyurl.com/2ybvk3ja Research Professional News - Public letter from academics sparks Māori science row https://tinyurl.com/3juc66yc An open letter in response to the professors' letter by Hendy and Wiles, "An open response to In defence of science" co-signed by 2000 people. https://tinyurl.com/2p8m65xn The Royal Society announced a breach of conduct enquiry into 3 of the letters authors, professors Corballis, Nola and Cooper, all fellows of the society. The Society launched the enquiry having publicly criticised the professors. Furthermore, the Society initially included 2 panellists who had signed the Hendy/Wiles letter, and all 5 complainants who sparked the enquiry were anonymous. The Society's role is to "advance and promote research and scholarly activity, the pursuit of knowledge". However, it was blind to their lack of impartiality and due process and to the irony of prosecuting preeminent scholars for academic expression well within the limits of their professional, legal and ethical obligations. Eventually, the Society dropped the investigation into the "errant" professors. It issued the following mea culpa statement - https://www.royalsociety.org.nz/news/he-panui-statem Links… The Government education report https://tinyurl.com/3yfry76h “In Defence of Science” - Letter to the editor published in the New Zealand Listener, July 2021 “More In De

More from The Shape of Dialogue

Sep 29, 2026

About Brett Hall Brett Hall is an expert in epistemology (the theory of knowledge) and the philosophy of science. From childhood, Brett was motivated by the big questions about the universe. He studied an unconventional Bachelor of Science in astronomy, quantum theory, general relativity, mathematics, logic, and, in particular, the philosophy of science at the University of New South Wales. His degree introduced him to Karl Popper and David Deutsch, whose ideas on knowledge, science, physics, ethics, and philosophy shaped his thinking. Subsequently, Brett gained a Bachelor of Teaching (Mathematics and Science) from the University of Western Sydney, a Postgraduate Certificate in TESOL from Macquarie University, a Postgraduate Certificate from the Australian Catholic University, focusing on further mathematics and a Master of Science in Astronomy from Swinburne University, which he regards as his most rigorous and satisfying qualification. This fulfilled his childhood dream of becoming an astronomer, though he never pursued it professionally. He also briefly started a Diploma of Geoscience (Geophysics). Brett worked as a security guard while studying and later as a science communicator at the University of New South Wales’ Outreach Centre, running planetarium shows and science demonstrations. Read Brett’s writings on the physics, epistemology, the philosophy of science and more at www.bretthall.org Follow Brett’s Theory Of Knowledge (TOK) podcast on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmP5H2rF-ER33a58ZD5jCig X - https://x.com/ToKTeacher Also mentioned: David Deutsch - https://www.daviddeutsch.org.uk

Mar 29, 2026

Australian Popperian philosopher, Rafe Champion, outlines the five pillars of peace, freedom and prosperity that are the foundations for our Western civilisation. About Rafe Champion: http://www.the-rathouse.com/aboutRafe.html The Philosophy Site of Rafe Champion - The Rat House http://www.the-rathouse.com/index.html Five pillars of peace freedom and prosperity https://rafechampion.substack.com/p/five-pillars-of-peace-freedom-and?utm_source=publication-search Critical rationalism as articulated by Karl Popper The principles of classical or non-collectivist liberalism in politics In economics, the importance Free trade, entrepreneurialism and a market underpinned by the rule of law A moral framework founded on honesty, compassion, civility, personal responsibility, community service, and enterprise. Energy - abundant, reliable, and cheap energy.

Mar 26, 2026

Ani O'Brien is a women's rights advocate and political commentator. She has worked previously for the Leader of the Opposition (National) and is a council member of the Free Speech Union. https://aniobrien.substack.com/ Juliet Moses is spokesperson for the New Zealand Jewish Council and is a trust lawyer. This podcast features a discussion between Ani O'Brien (women's rights advocate, political commentator, Free Speech Union council member, and self-described TERF), and Juliet Moses (spokesperson for the New Zealand Jewish Council and trust lawyer), exploring how grand narratives -overarching moral stories that define heroes/villains, good/evil, and acceptable discourse - powerfully shape public conversations, media framing, policy, and perceptions, often inverting reality and sidelining facts through emotional appeals, institutional capture, and social pressure. Music: Bach B Minor Mass Performed by John Eliot Gardiner, The Monteverdi Choir and The English Baroque Soloists https://music.apple.com/nz/album/j-s-bach-mass-in-b-minor-bwv-232/1053521016 https://open.spotify.com/album/3ELfX4GIPcYOTJBl8PdoKi?si=I8bz8nhaTyK3Qq4E5-ZtXg

Feb 11, 2026

About Nigel Biggar: https://nigelbiggar.uk/about/ Nigel Biggar CBE is Emeritus Regius Professor of Moral Theology at the University of Oxford and Distinguished Scholar in Residence at Pusey House, Oxford. He holds a B.A. in Modern History from Oxford and a Ph.D. in Christian Theology & Ethics from the University of Chicago. He was appointed C.B.E. “for services to Higher Education” in the 2021 Queen’s Birthday Honours list. The Treaty of Waitangi https://www.tepapa.govt.nz/discover-collections/read-watch-play/maori/treaty-waitangi/treaty-close/full-text-te-tiriti-o Chris Hipkins: How shared values can unite Aotearoa and not divide https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/chris-hipkins-how-shared-values-can-unite-aotearoa-and-not-divide/74ZQEKGFARAWZN7W5OHN27KY3A/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email David Seymour: Treaty should mean equal rights, not race-based policy https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/david-seymour-treaty-should-mean-equal-rights-not-race-based-policy/UBZ5PT56HNCJDCZZEJN6S4PHEU/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email Music: Bach B Minor Mass Performed by John Eliot Gardiner, The Monteverdi Choir and The English Baroque Soloists https://music.apple.com/nz/album/j-s-bach-mass-in-b-minor-bwv-232/1053521016 https://open.spotify.com/album/3ELfX4GIPcYOTJBl8PdoKi?si=I8bz8nhaTyK3Qq4E5-ZtXg

Jan 30, 2026

Katharine Birbalsingh, CBE, is the Headmistress and co-founder of Michaela Community School in Wembley, London. She was Chair of the Social Mobility Commission from 2021 to 2023. Michaela School is renowned for its high standards of behaviour and academic achievement, knowledge curriculum and teaching of kindness and gratitude. In 2017, Ofsted graded the school as ‘Outstanding’ in every category. In 2022, almost 75% of all GCSEs were graded 9 to 7 (A* to A). 98% of pupils achieved a 4+ (C or above) in both English and Maths, with 99% of all pupils achieving grade 9 to 4 (A* to C) in at least 5 subjects. Katharine read Philosophy and Modern Languages at the University of Oxford and has always taught in inner London. She has made numerous appearances on television and radio and has written for several UK publications. Katharine has written 2 books and edited 2 more, including The Power of Culture (published in June 2020). Katharine was appointed Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in the 2020 Birthday Honours by the Queen. https://michaela.education/

See all episodes →