Poor Proxies for Leadership | A Conversation with Chris Baker

Leadership interviews terrify plenty of capable teachers, and Shane admits he is one of them. So Orla Dempsey, a coach who helps teachers secure leadership positions, coaches him live in this episode. She starts with a reframe Shane calls huge: when a question asks “what would you do if...”, answer in the past tense and tell a story about something you have already done. If you are preparing for a school leadership interview, or helping a colleague prepare, you can use her tools straight away.

A teacher hands in their planning late for the third time, and you know they are dealing with a difficult situation at home. Insist on the deadline and you may ask for something they cannot manage, but keep extending it and colleagues end up carrying the load while pupils’ preparation suffers. This solo episode of school leadership coaching looks at what to do when two of your values pull in opposite directions, using Rushworth Kidder’s idea of “right versus right” dilemmas. It matters for any leader who has felt torn between standards and compassion and defaulted to whichever response felt most familiar.

Dr Andrew Miller, Academic Principal at Beijing International Bilingual Academy, explains what going slow really looks like for a school leader and why "maybe don't" could be the most useful phrase you say all year. His career spans Washington State's Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction, Singapore American School and Shanghai American School, so he has seen how pressure to move fast plays out in very different systems. There is also a story behind this episode: Shane's audio failed to record, so you hear Andrew's answers as they were given on the day, with short bridge lines from Shane to set up each question.

Every month, Shane Leaning and Chris Scora sit down to unpack what has come up on the Education Leaders podcast, and this live catch-up covers two of the season's most talked-about conversations. The main event is a robust back-and-forth on Claire Badger's episode, "Do Schools Really Kill Creativity?", where Chris admits he needed three listens to get past his initial discomfort with Claire's certainty before finding real common ground. They also revisit Jim Knight's "Stop Telling Teachers What to Do" and discuss why his coaching-over-directing approach has struggled to gain traction in UK schools despite making obvious sense on paper.

Claire Badger, a former research scientist and science teacher, disagrees with one of the most popular ideas in education: that schools kill creativity. Drawing on the cognitive science in her book, she argues that creativity has a clear definition (something must be both new and useful) and that most school approaches to it miss the second half. If your school celebrates its art displays, orchestra and project weeks as proof of creativity, this conversation will make you question what those activities are actually building. It matters for international school leaders in particular, where inquiry-based and project-based learning sit at the heart of the curriculum. You'll hear why a child's paperclip-spaceship idea is imaginative but not creative, and why a group of students told to write about "Colin, a red-haired boy missing a toe" produced better stories than those given a blank page. Claire shares her own "sustainable product" project day, which ended with a perpetual motion machine, and explains why cross-curricular projects often teach less than leaders hope. You'll also pick up practical first steps, from loosening the grip of data drops and Key Stage 3 exams to changing just one element of a lesson, such as asking for a video explanation instead of pages of written calculations. Shane and Claire even compare two very different schools and ask which one is more likely to produce creative graduates.