Show Notes
Welcome to Elevator Systems! This episode looks at Bowen family systems theory and marriage. Joining Dixie Vandersluys and Katie White is Phil Klever who has spent over two decades doing research on married couples.
Phil Klever has applied Bowen theory in his clinical practice and his personal life over most of his adult life. He has tested Bowen theory hypotheses in his longitudinal family research study. He is a member of Dr. Daniel Papero's postgraduate research seminar, the Bowen theory Journal Club, and the Bowen Center's Research Committee.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode: Observing fusion in marriage and the balance of being both a separate and connected person is central in maintaining maturity in marriage The influence of the multi-generational family on marriage Thinking through relationship patterns: conflict, distance, triangles, and over and under-functioning Keeping a broad perspective of influences on marriage Examples: the classic approach/avoid pattern, a personal example of meeting the in-laws, and “The Story of Us”.
Couples and counsellors alike will gain insights to how Bowen theory can inform one’s understanding of the marriage relationship.
Terms you don’t understand? We have episodes on all 8 concepts of Bowen theory and other ideas in Elevator Systems Seasons 1 & 2.
Recommended Resources: The Murray Bowen Archives Project Dr. Ronald Richardson: Family Ties that Bind Dr. Jenny Brown: Growing Yourself Up Peg Donley interview Donley, M (2016) “Bonding and Babies: The Evolution of Biparental Care and The Primary Triangle”, Family Systems, 12,1. Phil Klever Research: Chapters: 1998. “Marital Fusion and Differentiation.” In Titelman (Ed.) Clinical Applications of Bowen Family Systems Theory 2003. “Marital Functioning and Multigenerational Fusion and Cutoff.” In Titelman (Ed.), Emotional Cutoff 2008. “Triangles in Marriage.” In Titelman (Ed.), Triangles: Bowen Family Systems Theory Perspectives 2014. “Applying Differentiation of Self in One’s Family.” In Titelman (Ed.), Differentiation of Self 2020. “The Primary Triangle and Variation in Family Functioning.” In Keller and Noone (Ed.), Handbook of Bowen Family Systems Theory and Research Methods 2020. “The Multigenerational Transmission of Family Unit Functioning.” In Keller and Noone (Ed.), Handbook of Bowen Family Systems Theory and Research Methods Articles: 2018. “Goal Effectiveness and Family Functioning.” The American Journal of Family Therapy 46: 195-212 2021. “Divergent Spouse Functioning.” Family Systems 14: 103-130. 2023. “Similarity in Spouse Functioning.” Family Systems 17.2: 139-165 2025. “Child Focus and the Family Unit: A Comparison of Families with Lower and Higher Child Symptomology.” Family Systems 19, 2: 105-133.
New podcast episodes released every Tuesday this season—stay tuned as we explore relationships across the lifespan! Subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts so you don’t miss a weekly release. Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and comment.
Living Systems Counselling and Training provides educational material for those interested in learning more about Bowen family systems theory
Living Systems Hybrid Conference: October 17–18, 2025 Conference theme: Aging—Individual Challenge or Family Opportunity? Learn more here
Key Topics:#BowenFamilySystems #LivingSystems #MurrayBowen #Therapy #SystemsThinking #Family #Marriage #Couples #MarriageDynamics #FamilyofOrigin #FamilyHistory #MultiGenerational #TheStoryofUsMovie #TherapyPodcast #MentalHealth #Relationships #DifferentiationOfSelf #Differentiation #BowenTheory #ElevatorSystems #FamilySystemsTheory #ElevatorSystemsPodcast #MurrayBowenArchives #TMBAP #TheMurrayBowenArchivesProject
DISCLAIMER: This podcast is general information about Bowen family systems theory and is not considered the practice of counselling or therapy. The information presented are the views of the people who say them. Any information used from this podcast is used at your own risk.
More from Elevator Systems - Bowen Family Systems Theory
This episode explores how to hold on to systems thinking in everyday life and relationships. Dr. Kathleen Smith, Katie, and Dixie share practical ways to widen the lens, stay curious, and notice patterns instead of assigning blame. Through examples from family transitions, clinical work, and stories from books and television, they discuss how small practices—like observing emotional process, asking different questions, and focusing on your own choices—can help make systems thinking more accessible. Dr. Kathleen Smith joins us from Washington DC where she’s a licensed therapist and writer. Her two books are Everything Isn't Terrible and True to You, and she also writes the popular online newsletter, The Anxious Overachiever. Kathleen is a faculty member at the Bowen Center. Resources: Dr. Kathleen Smith - The Anxious Overachiever newsletter Dr. Kathleen Smith - Everything Isn’t Terrible Dr. Kathleen Smith - True to You Anthony J. Wilgus, “Mom’s Committed Suicide: Now What?” In Titelman & Reed, Ed., Death and Chronic Illness in the Family Roberta M. Gilbert, MD - Extraordinary Relationships Anne S. McKnight, EdD - Thinking Systems Oct 23rd Living Systems Conference, Thinking Big About Family Challenges 2027 International Conference, July 7-9, 2027 Nov 6-7th Bowen Center 63rd Annual Symposium Living Systems Counselling and Training Want to speak with a counsellor? Contact us Season 5 episodes will be released every two weeks from Tuesday October 6th til the International Conference in July of 2027. Buy us a “coffee” at https://ko-fi.com/elevatorsystems and support the production of the podcast! Terms you don’t understand? We have episodes on all 8 concepts of Bowen theory and other ideas in Elevator Systems Seasons 1 to 4. Subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. Like, subscribe, and comment. Living Systems Counselling and Training provides educational material for those interested in learning more about Bowen family systems theory: https://livingsystems.ca Key Topics: #BowenFamilySystems #LivingSystems #MurrayBowen #SystemsThinking #Patterns #MentalHealth #Relationships #TherapyPodcast #DifferentiationOfSelf #Differentiation #Therapy #BowenTheory #ElevatorSystems #FamilySystemsTheory #ElevatorSystemsPodcast DISCLAIMER: This podcast is general information about Bowen family systems theory and is not considered the practice of counselling or therapy. The information presented are the views of the people who say them. Any information used from this podcast is used at your own risk
Elevator Systems is back for Season 5. This season’s theme connects with the Bowen Theory International Conference happening in Vancouver, BC (and online) in July 2027. The conference title is Bowen Theory Beyond Borders: Exploring Current Applications and Growing Global Connections. See the link below for more information on that conference. Season 5 welcomes Bowen thinkers and practitioners from around the globe to discuss different areas they are using and expanding the theory. Dixie Vandersluys is a Canadian Certified Counsellor based in Manitoba, Canada. She has undergraduate degrees in history and philosophy and a Master of Arts in Counselling from Providence Theological Seminary. Dixie enjoys seeing clients across Canada in her private practice and doing workshops with different groups. Dixie is a faculty member at Living Systems and the creator and host of the Elevator Systems podcast. Katie White is a Marriage and Family Therapist registered in the US and Canada. She has been working with individuals, couples and families in schools, clinics, and non-profit centres for twenty years in the US, Australia and Canada. In 2010, Katie began focusing her practice using Bowen family systems theory and has attended the Post-Graduate Program at the Bowen Center. Katie is currently the Executive Director of Living Systems in Vancouver Canada. Katie teaches and supervises interns there, as well as managing a private practice. Season 5 episodes will be released every two weeks from Tuesday October 6th til the International Conference in July of 2027. Buy us a “coffee” at https://ko-fi.com/elevatorsystems and support the production of the podcast! Terms you don’t understand? We have episodes on all 8 concepts of Bowen theory and other ideas in Elevator Systems Seasons 1 to 4. Resources: Kerr & Bowen, Family Evaluation 2027 International Conference, July 7-9, 2027 Oct 23rd Living Systems Conference, Thinking Big About Family Challenges Nov 6-7th Bowen Center 63rd Annual Symposium Living Systems Counselling and Training Subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. Like, subscribe, and comment. Living Systems Counselling and Training provides educational material for those interested in learning more about Bowen family systems theory: https://livingsystems.ca Key Topics: #BowenFamilySystems #LivingSystems #MurrayBowen #SystemsThinking #Relationships #TherapyPodcast #DifferentiationOfSelf #Differentiation #Therapy #BowenTheory #ElevatorSystems #FamilySystemsTheory #ElevatorSystemsPodcast
The Season 4 bonus episode is a conversation with Dr. Anne McKnight on beliefs, relationships, and Bowen family systems theory. It looks at how emotional pressures influence how people think, act, and believe, and how slowing down, getting curious, and examining one’s position in a relationship system can help clarify beliefs and how one wants to live out beliefs.
This episode explores how money is linked to family and relationship processes. Kathy Wiseman shares her personal and professional experience from across the decades in a conversation about how Bowen family systems theory is helpful for individuals, families, and organizations to be more thoughtful about their financial situations, struggles, and goals.
This episode discusses Bowen family systems theory and sexual diversity. Kent Webb joins to share his personal journey and research on the topic. The conversation explores how curiosity and open dialogue can encourage understanding and growth in relationships as well as in Bowen theory itself.