Show Notes
Today I’m resharing an episode from November 2024 with Fr. Chris Kellerman. I wanted to re-share this conversation because of how relevant it is to Pope Leo’s new encyclical, Magnifica Humanitas. In Paragraph 176 of that encyclical, the pope said: “In the development of her doctrine, the Church has gradually come to a deeper awareness of the gravity of these issues. It is true that past events cannot be judged anachronistically, as though the moral criteria that matured over time had always been available. Yet neither can we deny or diminish the delay with which both society and the Church came to denounce the scourge of slavery. In antiquity and the Middle Ages many individuals and even ecclesiastical institutions had slaves. Already in the early modern period, the Apostolic See of Rome, responding to requests from Sovereigns, intervened several times in order to regulate and legitimize forms of subjugation, and, in certain cases, the enslavement of ‘infidels.’ [174] It was only in the nineteenth century that a formal, absolute and universal condemnation of slavery was clearly articulated, notably under Pope Leo XIII. [175] This development offers a clear example of the Church’s growth in understanding the perennial truths of Revelation that she safeguards. Although there was not always consistency in practice — given that slavery was long tolerated before being unequivocally condemned — there has been a continuous affirmation throughout history of the dignity of every human being, created in the image of God, even if it took eighteen centuries for its full incompatibility with slavery to be explicitly recognized. This constitutes a wound in Christian memory, one from which we cannot consider ourselves detached. [176] It is impossible not to feel deep sorrow when contemplating the immense suffering and humiliation endured by so many in stark contrast to their immeasurable dignity as persons infinitely loved by the Lord. For this, in the name of the Church, I sincerely ask for pardon.” It’s hard to overstate how significant this paragraph is. It feels meaningful that it’s the first American pope, himself a descendant of enslaved persons and of people who owned slaves, who is unequivocally apologizing for the Church’s horrific historical complicity in slavery. This stands in contrast to his namesake, Leo XII, who penned a revisionist history when he condemned slavery in 1888. Also, this paragraph is, to my knowledge, the most authoritative magisterial teaching to date that states that doctrine can, and has, developed to the point of apparent reversal. Further, Pope Leo also indicates that the Church delaying development can be profoundly unjust. And all of this connects to my conversation nearly two years ago with Fr. Chris Kellerman SJ about his book, “All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.” In that conversation he presented a brief history of the Church’s involvement with, and teachings about, slavery. Fr. Chris also responded to still repeated misconceptions and revisionist histories about the Church’s participation in the slave trade. Finally, we talked about how this relates to the priest abuse crisis and how confronting the evils in the Church impacts our own faith. I’m excited to share it with you again! Also, I apologize for the audio quality of this episode, I didn’t realize I was using the wrong microphone until after the recording was over. Fr. Chris Kellerman, SJ, is Secretary of Justice and Ecology for the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington, D.C, where he oversees the U.S. government relations and legislative advocacy operations of the Jesuits. Originally from Arlington, TX, he studied at Texas Tech University, the University of Dallas, and Regis College at the University of Toronto. He is the author of All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church. LINKS: All Oppression Shall Cease : A History o
More from Third Space Podcast
Thank you Brad Klingele, Marco, Rachel Amiri, Theresa Westergard, ElizabethMuhleisen, and many others for tuning into my live video with Sarah Carter and Hendro Munsterman! Join me for my next live video in the app. Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
I’ve been really enjoying The Moral Revolution Podcast with Laura Segafredo and Tony Annett, especially their ability to explain the histories and differences between socialism, liberalism, social democracy, and Catholic Social Teaching. Also, it’s an election year and, living in Michigan with Abdul El-Sayed running for Senate, I’ve seen renewed use of the word “Socialism” and rhetoric about how Catholics can’t be Socialists. So I wanted to have Tony Annett on my podcast again, this time to talk about Socialism. Anthony Annett is an economist and author whose work sits at the intersection of political economy, democracy, and moral philosophy. He spent two decades at the International Monetary Fund, including as speechwriter to two Managing Directors. He holds a Ph.D. in economics from Columbia University and a B.A. and an M.Litt from Trinity College Dublin. He is also a member of the College of Fellows of the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology. He helped organize Ethics in Action — an initiative that met regularly at the Vatican and brought together representatives of the major world religions alongside economists, development experts, philosophers, business and labor leaders, philanthropists, and activists to formulate a shared moral framework for addressing major global problems. He is the author of Cathonomics: How Catholic Tradition Can Create a More Just Economy (Georgetown University Press, 2022) and Bread and Ballots: Why Democracy Needs Economic Justice to Thrive (forthcoming, Georgetown University Press, 2027). He is also a co-editor of Ethics in Action for Sustainable Development (Columbia University Press, 2022) and a contributor to The Age of Fraternity: An Economy for the Common Good (forthcoming). Also, I just opened up registration for my next spiritual abuse workshop. This is an online workshop focused on recognizing, preventing, and responding to spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. This workshop is for: * Individuals trying to better understand their experiences of spiritual abuse in the Church * Clergy and lay leaders interested in safeguarding their communities from spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience * Therapists or spiritual directors working with clients who have been spiritually abused This workshop will help you: * Recognize and prevent spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church * Know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury * Better understand and respond to abusive systems in the Church This is a live online workshop that meets in a small group over the course of five weeks, beginning on October 26. Visit here for more details: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-november LINKS: The Moral Revolution Podcast https://moralrevolution.substack.com Tony’s book: Cathonomics: How Catholic Tradition Can Create a More Just Economyhttps://press.georgetown.edu/Book/Cathonomics Pope Francis Generation episode with Tonyhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/interview-with-tony-annett-a-more ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. www.catholicthirdspace.com LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life
It was great talking with Sarah Carter about Pope Leo’s catechetical series on Gaudium et Spes! We discussed the Church’s relationship with the world as well as how the Church too often squanders its credibility—and there its witness—to proclaim the common good, human dignity, and, ultimately, the Gospel. Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe Subscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe “The promulgation of Gaudium et Spes recognized in this discernment an essential element of the nature of the Church, describing her pastoral character as constitutive; hence the definition of ‘pastoral Constitution.’ It is not a question of naïve optimism, but rather a renewed fidelity to the Mystery of Christ who, by becoming incarnate, chooses to share our life: He made Himself ‘like His brethren in every respect’ (Heb 2:17; cf. 4:15) and took upon Himself the consequences of sin, dying ‘as a ransom for all’ (1 Tim 2:6). This sharing in our humanity is the path that Christ calls the Church to follow; hence, the Conciliar Constitution Gaudium et Spes begins by declaring that the Church makes her own ‘the joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the men of this age, especially those who are poor or in any way afflicted’” (GS 1).
Amoris Laetitia was a pivotal document for me in my own deconstruction away from a rigid and transactional faith to a faith grounded on the gratuitous love of God. It’s also a document that I often cite in my work to address spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church. It has really grieved me how much this document is dismissed and maligned by so many Catholics in the US. So I’m encouraged that Leo is putting it back into the spotlight as a normative teaching for the Church. This live video has four parts * Overview of the upcoming meeting on Amoris Laetitia * Look at the four sections of Amoris that I cite in my work addressing spiritual abuse * The Communion for divorced and remarried Catholics controversy * Time for Questions and Response Thank you to everyone who joined the live discussion! You see all my notes and citations here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cLs2NXijlhM8rHzFYOaWi98OBsoSyxI-/view?usp=sharing Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
Over the summer I came across a series of articles on Substack titled, A Proverbial Naked Bike Ride Through Steubenville, Ohio. The author, Lindsay Tsohantaridis, talked about abuse of power and systemic cultures of abuse within the Franciscan University of Steubenville and wider charismatic community. I found her writing to be insightful and extensively researched. Lindsay was able to put words to experiences that are really hard to put words to and provided principles and examples that can be applied to any system and subculture within Catholicism. So I was thrilled why she agreed to be on the podcast. Lindsay Younce Tsohantaridis was born and raised in the Pacific Northwest as an evangelical Quaker. At 19, she became Catholic then earned a BA in English and Masters in Teaching from George Fox University. She worked briefly as an actress on stage and film, portraying St Therese of Lisieux in the independent Catholic film Therese, then taught high school English and Drama. She currently lives in Steubenville, Ohio with her husband and seven children, and has scribbled off to the side for the past twenty years, submitting poetry and non-fiction here and there before starting her Substack. Also, I just opened up registration for my next spiritual abuse workshop. This is an online workshop focused on recognizing, preventing, and responding to spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. This workshop is for: * Individuals trying to better understand their experiences of spiritual abuse in the Church * Clergy and lay leaders interested in safeguarding their communities from spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience * Therapists or spiritual directors working with clients who have been spiritually abused This workshop will help you: * Recognize and prevent spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church * Know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury * Better understand and respond to abusive systems in the Church This is a live online workshop that meets in a small group over the course of five weeks, beginning on October 26. Visit for here more details: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-november LINKS: A Proverbial Naked Bike Ride Through Steubenville, Ohio (Part 1)https://lindsaytso.substack.com/p/a-proverbial-naked-bike-ride-through Lindsay’s Substackhttps://substack.com/@lindsaytso Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-november ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. www.catholicthirdspace.com LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese. ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and create