What Does Whiteness Hate? Dr Kathy Obear on Accountability, Discomfort and Action (Part 2)

In Part One of my conversation with Dr Kathy Obear, I explore whiteness, white accountability and the everyday behaviours through which racism and inequity can continue to operate within our organisations. Kathy is an author, facilitator, coach and founder of the Center for Transformation and Change. With more than 40 years of experience in conflict resolution, change management and creating inclusive cultures, her work has been hugely influential in my own learning and practice. In this episode, Kathy reflects candidly on her own journey as a white woman working in equity and social justice, including the moments when others challenged her to recognise where her own understanding of racism was limited. Together, we discuss: what whiteness is and why it can be so difficult (for white people) to see and define

In the final part of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore some of the most influential ideas within Critical Race Theory and why they remain so relevant to understanding racism today. Beginning with Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence, David explains why progress towards racial equity is often temporary, how moments of change emerge, and why systems of power frequently adapt to preserve themselves. We also discuss why Critical Race Theory has become so politically contested, what researchers often misunderstand about it, and why returning to the original scholars remains essential. In this episode, we discuss: Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence

In Part Two of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore one of the most enduring and politically influential narratives in education today: the idea that white working-class children have become the forgotten victims of race equality. Drawing on decades of research and evidence from his latest book, White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory, David unpacks how this narrative developed, why it continues to dominate public debate, and who ultimately benefits from it. Together, we examine how conversations about race are often reframed to shut down anti-racist work, despite there being no evidence that improving racial equity comes at the expense of white children living in poverty. In this episode, we discuss: the myth of white working-class victimhood

In Part One of this special three-part conversation, I sit down with Professor David Gillborn, one of the UK's leading Critical Race Theory scholars and a lifelong researcher of racism in education. We begin by exploring one of the most fundamental questions in race scholarship: what is whiteness? David explains why he increasingly prefers the term white racism over whiteness, arguing that the language we use matters because terms are continually reshaped, politicised and, at times, stripped of their original meaning. Drawing on his own working-class upbringing, his early experiences in education, and decades of research, David reflects on how class, race and institutional power intersect, and how those experiences shaped his career as a sociologist and race scholar. Together, we discuss: Why David prefers the term white racism rather than whiteness

In this episode of the Whiteness at Work podcast, I speak with executive leader, strategist, coach and author Angie Browne about whiteness, leadership, equity, and what becomes possible when we stop allowing whiteness to define the limits of our imagination. Drawing on decades of experience working internationally across education, organisational strategy and leadership, Angie explores whiteness as a manufactured system of power that disconnects people from their humanity while shaping institutions, policies and organisational cultures. Rather than centring whiteness as the destination of our work, Angie invites us to consider what happens when we turn our attention towards flourishing, sovereignty, community, ecology and new ways of leading. Together, we discuss: whiteness as a manufactured system of privilege