Show Notes
When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them?
Episode Summary Returning to the show, Gill Kernick joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster, following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents.
When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry.
But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges.
What you'll learn In this episode In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore: Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concluded The shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the Inquiry Why disasters rarely have a single root cause The hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre" Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn them The importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulation Why complexity requires different kinds of leadership How AI might help organisations learn lessons in real time Why hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance" AI-Generated.Timestamp Summary 00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters? 02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower 05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry 06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings 10:00 – When regulators knew the risks—but failed to act 12:00 – Implicit trust and why we rely on systems we don't understand 13:00 – Deregulation and the unintended consequences of political narratives 17:00 – Compliance versus understanding the intent behind regulation 20:00 – Why regulations struggle to keep pace with technology and complexity 24:00 – Hope as an act of resistance 25:00 – Why we don't actually learn lessons 27:00 – Is a seven-year inquiry too long? 33:00 – Why "post-Grenfell" reforms miss the real point 37:00 – Communities of grief and change 39:00 – Why Gill rewrote the book instead of writing a new one 44:00 – How the experience changed Gill's own thinking 50:00 – Speaking up in ways that actually get heard 53:30 – Practical advice for learning in complex systems 55:00 – "Lessons learning" instead of "lessons learned" 59:00 – Final reflections
Links Gill's website, The Grenfell Enquirer
Her book 'Catastrophe & Systemic Change'
Gill's LinkedIn:
Her previous show appearancesGill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part One Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part Two Topics discussedGrenfell Tower Inquiry – Final Report The Grenfell Enquirer (articles and resources) Arup's Building Safety Change Framework People and ideas mentionedDave Snowden (Cognitive Edge) Cynefin Framework overview Background incidents referencedPiper Alpha disaster (Encyclopaedia Britannica) Lakanal House fire (Wikipedia) Deepwater Horizon oil spill (Encyclopaedia Britannica)
More from The Human Risk Podcast
What does it actually take to prevent sexual harassment at work? Policies, training, reporting mechanisms and statements of zero tolerance are one thing. Creating a workplace where sexual harassment is genuinely less likely to happen is something else entirely.
What can financial markets teach us about human behaviour? Why might the size of a CEO’s signature tell us something useful about the company they run? And why, even when smart investors know something is probably a bubble, might they keep investing anyway?
What if understanding regulation could help us spot when politicians are promising the impossible? Regulation sounds simple in theory. Something poses a risk, so we create rules and a regulator to control it. In practice, things get complicated very quickly. It's something we all benefit from, but equally can experience as redtape that prevents us from doing what we think we ought to be able to.
What if AI could help us understand people better, rather than simply replacing what humans do?
What’s the last thing you learned simply because you wanted to know?