Ep 83: Owning the System of Record, AI-Native Org Charts, & Why ITSM is The Most Vulnerable Legacy Category

Yash Patil, a former OpenAI researcher who worked on Codex and now runs Applied Compute, argues that post-training is the most overlooked part of the AI stack and the key to owning your intelligence.

Jacob sits down with Buck Shlegeris, CEO of Redwood Research, one of the organizations that led the independent investigation into OpenAI/Hugging Face's incident. They dig into the incident itself, Buck's reactions to it, and what he believes it reveals about the state of where we are today.

In this installment of their recurring roundtable, Jacob, Ari, and Rob dig into the accelerating Chinese open-source model race, debating whether Kimi K3 has actually closed the gap with the US frontier or just looks like it has, and whether distillation fully explains China's progress. That opens into the messier fight over open-weight models generally, with the group dissecting the backlash against Anthropic's stance and asking whether powerful open models are inherently dangerous or actually a necessary part of collective defense. They connect this directly to the Fable ban episode as a possible preview of a coming frontier-model licensing regime, then turn to the OpenAI and Hugging Face security incident as a landmark, publicly legible moment of autonomous AI causing real-world harm. From there the conversation shifts to business strategy: how much value are companies actually handing over to frontier labs by building on their APIs, and what does the Grok and Cursor data advantage really tell us about the future value of real-world usage data versus purchased training data. They close with a rapid-fire tour of the news cycle, covering SSI's mysterious $5B raise, the rumored Stripe and OpenRouter acquisition, Google's continued underperformance despite structural advantages, and OpenAI's leadership speculation, plus a reflection on venture's swing back toward deep tech and physical infrastructure.

Igor Babuschkin, co-founder of River AI and formerly a co-founder of xAI, joins to unpack a career that spans nearly every major AI lab: he led the StarCraft and AlphaCode work at DeepMind, joined OpenAI's reasoning team years before o1 shipped, and co-founded xAI, where he helped stand up the Colossus data center in roughly 120 days and reflects candidly on what it's actually like working with Elon Musk day to day, plus what the Cursor acquisition actually unlocked for Grok's coding models. He also discusses why he left xAI to start River AI, the three bets behind it, and why he's betting on local hardware, not just software, for personal AI. On the enterprise side, he tackles whether companies will actually train their own models or if it's just a cost play, and makes the case that proprietary labs like OpenAI and Anthropic are facing a real business squeeze. He's skeptical that stacking specialized RL domains generalizes the way pre-training scale did, and is candid about the uncomfortable reality that today's frontier open-weight models are almost entirely Chinese. He closes on what's actually needed to push model progress beyond coding into non-verifiable domains, and the broader implications of where AI is headed next.

Benedict Evans, one of tech's most widely-read analysts, joins Jacob Effron. The conversation centers on Benedict's core thesis that comparing AI's scale to past platform shifts (the internet, mobile, PCs) is analytically useless, and that the more productive move is studying how those previous technologies actually evolved economically to reason about where AI's value will accrue. He argues the one genuine difference this time is that we don't know AI's physical or scientific limits, unlike past shifts where the boundaries were at least knowable, and that this uncertainty is what fuels both AGI hype and doomerism without resolving anything. Benedict unpacks why capabilities remain jagged, meaning usage is jagged too, why coding became the first real enterprise use case thanks to scalable verification, and why most consumer and enterprise use cases still have to be invented by entrepreneurs rather than emerging spontaneously once models improve. He also lays out why foundation model labs may end up structurally like TSMC rather than Windows, valuable but bounded rather than owning the entire stack, walks through why automation has historically meant more work rather than less (using a hundred years of rising accountant headcount as evidence), and explains why industries like Uber and Airbnb, or Caterpillar and the internet, show just how unevenly this kind of technology actually lands. Throughout, he offers candid, historically grounded takes on OpenAI's product sprawl versus Anthropic's narrow coding bet, Apple's stumbled AI moment, and why most companies, unlike Silicon Valley, have far bigger priorities than AI on their minds.