Show Notes
This month, Skin Flints welcomes a European and Australian boarded veterinary dermatologist, Sonya Bettenay. Show Notes (00:00) John introduces this month’s podcast, his co-hosts, and the topic. Chapter 1 – First Cut: Introducing Skin Biopsies (02:21) John invites Sonya to introduce herself, and she discusses her current work in Munich - focusing on skin biopsies, clinical practice, and teaching. Sue highlights Sonya's credentials, noting her Australian and European board certifications. Sonya explains her dermatology training in Australia and California and her involvement with the ECVD as an examiner and tutor. (03:57) Sue and Sonya discuss the challenges pathologists face in interpreting biopsy samples and the importance of taking quality samples to aid diagnosis. Sonya reflects on improvements in biopsy submissions over the years but notes that obtaining multiple samples often provides a more comprehensive picture. (05:31) John asks Sonya to explain what a skin biopsy is. Sonya describes it as a microscopic examination of the skin, providing insights beyond surface-level observation. Sonya outlines cases where biopsies are useful, such as unusual presentations that deviate from common conditions, and emphasises the need to tailor biopsy timing based on the patient's condition. Chapter 2 – Going Deeper - Steps Before Biopsy (09:15) Sue asks Sonya whether biopsies should replace basic investigative tests. Sonya emphasises that fundamental diagnostic steps such as skin scrapes, hair plucks, and impression smears should be performed first in most cases. However, she highlights exceptions, particularly for vesicular or severe oral mucosal lesions, where early biopsy is crucial to diagnosing immune-mediated conditions. Sonya explains the importance of maintaining the integrity of vesicular lesions during biopsy to ensure accurate diagnosis. She stresses the need to take elliptical samples to include surrounding healthy tissue and avoid disrupting the lesion structure. (11:52) Sue and Sonya discuss the distinction between primary and secondary lesions. Sonya explains that primary lesions, such as pustules and vesicles, provide the most diagnostic value, whereas secondary lesions, like crusts and alopecia due to self-trauma, may offer limited insights. (15:15) John asks about choosing biopsy techniques. Sonya shares her preference for biopsy punches due to their precision and ease of use, while acknowledging the importance of elliptical excisions for fragile lesions like vesicles. She explains the technical aspects of both methods and how they can impact diagnostic outcomes. Chapter 3 – Preservation - Sustainability and Practical Considerations (19:30) Sue raises concerns about the sustainability of single-use biopsy punches. Sonya explains that while some attempts to sterilise and reuse them have been made, they often result in decreased sharpness and reliability. She advises using new punches for best results but acknowledges the need for sustainable alternatives. Sonya discusses her approach to biopsy sampling, recommending taking multiple samples to ensure comprehensive diagnosis. She suggests including normal tissue alongside affected areas for comparison. Sue and Sonya explore potential innovations for more sustainable biopsy tools, such as reusable handles with replaceable blades. (23:19) John asks if separate biopsy punches should be used for each sample. Sonya clarifies that one punch can typically be used for multiple samples unless dealing with particularly tough tissues that may dull the instrument. (23:52) John then asks who can take biopsies and Sonya notes that all vets and also veterinary nurses may be able to take samples depending on local regulations, particularly for alopecia cases. She highlights the importance of orienting samples correctly by marking the direction of hair growth to aid pathologists in accurate analysis. (27:25) Sue and Sonya discuss the need for deep biopsies in cases of hair lo
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CHAPTER 1 – Rosanna’s 2 Pennies Worth This month, Sue, John and Paul welcome Rosanna Marsella to the platform - Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Dermatology and Professor at the University of Florida. 03:57 – John invites Rosanna to introduce herself. Thirty years as a veterinary dermatologist at the University of Florida, teaching, researching and treating small-animal allergy alongside some large-animal work; Florida's climate means plenty of infections. 04:42 – John asks how she'd categorise pyoderma. Rosanna explains it's classified by depth: surface pyoderma (often the "hot spot"), superficial pyoderma (essentially bacterial folliculitis), and deep pyoderma, where infection breaches the follicle wall into the dermis (furunculosis). 05:35 – Sue asks how dysbiosis differs from surface pyoderma. Allergic dogs already have reduced microbiome diversity, which shifts sharply toward Staphylococcus during a flare; dysbiosis is that pre-pustular shift, while surface pyoderma is the acute inflammatory skin-barrier damage that follows. 07:45 – Sue asks what AMD looks like clinically. Rosanna describes the classic picture: thick-coated dogs developing intensely pruritic, erosive lesions almost overnight on the face, rump or hips, driven by an acute trigger plus moisture trapped against the skin. 09:01 – John asks how important it is to find the trigger rather than just treat the lesion. Miss it, Rosanna says, and the dog either won't fully respond or will relapse. 09:54 – John runs through the usual suspects - fleas, allergic skin disease, ear disease, trapped moisture, pain, boredom. Rosanna splits these into predisposing factors (thick coat, heat, humidity, swimming) and primary triggers, ranking fleas top: an oral flea product still needs the flea to bite before it works, so a flea-allergic dog may also need a repellent. 13:37 – Sue asks whether lesion distribution helps distinguish flea-driven AMD from other allergies. Rosanna's rule of thumb: the back half of the body is fleas until proven otherwise; facial lesions warrant a work-up for pollen allergy or Malassezia otitis, both intensely itchy in their own right. 17:07 – John asks Sue whether "fleas first" holds in the UK climate too. Sue agrees fleas should be ruled out in every case, even with fast-acting isoxazoline parasiticides on board. CHAPTER 2 – More Than Skin Deep
In this month's episode, Sue, John and Paul welcome Professor & Chief of Service (Dermatology) at UC Davis, Stephen D White to the podcast. Chapter 1: Sheep Skin Detectives (03:09) Sue sets the scope: primary-care perspective rather than rare autoimmune disease. Stephen confirms autoimmune skin disease is vanishingly rare in sheep (pemphigus foliaceus essentially unreported, bar one Barbary sheep case in a zoo). (06:10) Sue asks whether clinical distribution helps localise the cause in a pruritic sheep the way it does in a dog or cat. Stephen explains it's less reliable — thick wool can mask hair loss even with significant pruritus, though rubbing behaviour is usually evident. Lice are visible with a hand lens; mites are not. (08:07) Question on empirical response to treatment. Stephen notes lice usually respond well to licensed ectoparasiticides (mainly avermectins); isoxazolines are unlicensed in ruminants and unreported in sheep specifically (though used in camelids, and anecdotally a bighorn sheep). Repeat treatment at 2–4 weeks is usually needed to catch hatching eggs. Chapter 2: Suspect Number 1 - Ectoparasites (11:30) John asks for top differentials in a pruritic sheep, Stephen answers: “ectoparasites, ectoparasites, and ectoparasites” — mites, lice and sheep keds (which are insects, not mites). He stresses checking in-contact sheep, since one animal may be subclinical while another is severely affected. (13:49) Sue asks why would a referral centre see an ectoparasite case at all? Stephen: usually a failed or incomplete owner-applied treatment, or a backyard sheep simply not monitored closely enough for early signs. (15:29) On technique: always scrape if pruritic, using a medical-grade spatula rather than a blade (sheep are skittish; a slip with a blade causes injury). An otoscope with the cone removed doubles as a magnifier and light source. Dermatophytosis should also be considered — often presenting as facial alopecia rather than fleece loss — and can coexist with ectoparasitism. (15:09) John ask about photosensitisation. Stephen distinguishes hepatogenous causes (impaired phylloerythrin metabolism from hepatotoxic plants, or a genetic defect in Corriedale lambs) from primary photodynamic plant ingestion (e.g. St John's Wort). Lesions favour the head and distal limbs. Flock-wide cases point to an environmental cause (send hay/pasture samples to the local extension lab); idiosyncratic reactions (as seen with clover in horses) may occur but are poorly documented in ruminants. Chapter 3: Dermatological Movie Stars (26:48) John introduces orf, referencing its cameo in Sheep Detectives. Stephen describes it as a parapoxvirus infection, usually self-limiting, but causing anorexia through oral pain — a problem in production settings. A non-resolving “super orf” form causes severe weight loss. Stephen shares data from the retrospective study: of ten orf-affected sheep, five were euthanised, due to generalised cutaneous lesions or concurrent Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis abscesses — evidence that orf can significantly compromise immune function. One case of orf-associated facial alopecia resolved fully once the virus cleared. (31:07) On zoonotic risk and management: gloves are essential when handling any crusting lesion in sheep or goats. Management includes moistening hay to ease painful feeding, antibiotics for secondary bacterial infection, and parenteral treatment or stomach tubing in severe anorexia. (33:17) Sue asks about bacterial skin disease. Stephen identifies C. pseudotuberculosis and staphylococcal abscesses as the main presentations — often large, anywhere on the body, commonly peri udder in females. Internal abscessation (lungs, liver) is a key concern; aspirated purulent masses warrant involving a large-animal colleague, with caution against environmental contamination during drainage. Dermatophilosis is discussed as globally widespread and rain-associated, presenting dorsally, or interdigi
In this episode of Skinflints, we are joined by veterinary dermatologist Dr Stephen Shaw to discuss the role of JAK inhibitors in managing canine atopic dermatitis. Stephen explains the underlying disease process, highlighting the key cytokines involved in itch and inflammation, and how JAK inhibitors provide rapid, broad-spectrum control by blocking these signalling pathways. The discussion explores how treatment should be tailored to each individual dog, considering disease severity, secondary infections and long-term management goals. Stephen also explains the benefits of using JAK inhibitors during food trials, their role alongside other therapies, and practical considerations such as monitoring, vaccination and managing concurrent disease. The episode concludes by emphasising the importance of evidence-based treatment, informed owner discussions and regular clinical assessment, reinforcing that successful management relies on selecting the right therapy for each patient rather than adopting a one-size-fits-all approach. This episode is kindly sponsored by MSD Animal Health
(00:00:00) John introduces a new episode on Feline Orofacial Pain Syndrome (FOPS) — a baffling condition where cats can flip from calm to frantic self-injury around the mouth and face in seconds.