John Riley on Nature vs Nurture, How Students Have Changed, Making The 1 O'Clock Lab Band, and More
The 8020 Drummer PodcastShow Notes
The last lengthy conversation I had with John Riley before this interview was probably when I was still a college student. That's why it was super rewarding to catch up with one of drum teaching's deepest thinkers, and pick his brain about a great many things I've experienced and thought about in the intervening years. John and I begin by discussing nature-vs-nurture, when I ask him about a passage in his first book. That kicks off a thread about John's own musical journey, whether he ever thought twice about drumming, and what really happened during what I've come to think of his "magical summer", between his freshman and sophomore years at UNT, after which he won a seat in the prestigious One O'Clock Lab Band, and a teaching position at the end of the year. John also holds forth on the importance of curiosity to guide practice, and why at a certain level of experience, it can be good to practice abstractions even if they don't directly affect your day-to-day playing. Finally we speak about how students have changed in the 20 years since I was his student (I feel ancient writing that), and how his approach to teaching has changed. (Of course I can't avoid bringing up Whiplash.) Like many of my guests, John was extremely generous with his time, and didn't hold back on his thoughts. I'm sure you'll enjoy this conversation.
Chapters 1:15 - what does John think about nature vs nurture 6:35 - did John ever think twice about the drums as a career path? 9:39 - what happened during John's "magical summer"? 13:25 - why John doesn't like to use written music if he can avoid it 19:35 - John's lesser-known influences 22:45 - how structured are John's practice sessions these days 26:10 - did John reach a point when he felt mostly confident? 29:53 - how have John's students changed in 20 years 37:48 - what's changed about John's teaching approach
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It's fitting that two weeks after hearing from Chris Turner, a man with one of the most whimsical, intuitive approaches to drums I've ever encountered, we encounter one Stan Bicknell, who's built a brand around a mindful, deliberate, disciplined approach to the drums, and to architecting a life around it. Stan wowed audiences with his appearance on Drumeo 5 years ago. Around this time, his touring career was taking off. But after the birth of his child, Stan made the decision to put his life front-and-center, move back to his native New Zealand, and design a role for drums, drum practice, drum teaching, and drum performance, that served his life goals. Stan's story resonated with me, because I made a similar decision around a decade ago, when I decided to start the 8020 channel. (I should say, I wasn't turning down touring opportunities.) Speaking to Stan was a great "meeting of the minds", because we've read many of the same books, and thought along the same lines. It's just that he's doing practically all of it better than I am. Which inspires an adage - "find the person who's doing what you want to do better than you are, and draw inspiration from them." Stan is like the Qui-Gon Jinn of the drums, with his disciplined practice routines, mindfulness, goal-setting, and integration between drums and life. And it shows in his playing. Stan is almost 100% self-taught, which is to say he emulated his drum heroes like Weckl and Vinnie largely without teachers as intermediaries, and while he wouldn't recommend that for everybody, all that extra work left him with some revised first-principles. He also coaches drummers in not-only the instrument, but in life-satisfaction, and, as the episode title says, building a life around the drums. I hope you'll find this discussion as fascinating as I did. Chapters 0:00 - setting a goal without assuming you're entitled to the results 6:44 - finding humility by removing gatekeepers 12:05 - the paradox of putting in the time without feeling locked in 17:15 - small world - Richie Martinez shout-outs 20:54 - why routines are necessary for improvement 24:44 - does it ever get any easier? 29:58 - inside Stan's system for improvisation 38:10 - spending a lot of time practicing something abstract 43:49 - identity diversity and being a "whole drummer"
Chris Turner is kind of the undisputed modern "double kick king". Which, if that was all he was, might be of less interest to my audience. Luckily he's also one of the most musical and creative drummers, and one of the most interesting and inspiring humans I've met recently. One of the underrated benefits of getting to speak to great drummers is seeing the variety of different ways they've achieved, well, greatness. And you learn there are really very different archetypes, from the "acerbic everyman", to the "systems and discipline person", to the "rocket-fueled motivation machine". (The last might describe Isac Jamba and Richie Martinez, among others.) Chris Turner has the seemingly-bottomless-pit-of-motivation that some of the other guests have, but it's combined with an easy-going, "come-what-may" kind of whimsy. He literally says he structures his life to avoid doing anything he doesn't want to do in a given day. If you're wondering about the obvious paradox between that approach and the discipline and longevity required to reach his level on drums, I was wondering the same thing, and his answer mildly floored me. Chris says for his entire life, he's strung together a series of independent days of falling deeply in love with the drums. When I asked him if he's seen 50 First Dates, the Adam Sandler/Drew Barrymore rom com, he agreed "it's like that." I was rather pleased that in this hour-long conversation with the world's foremost double-kick player, we only broached double kick twice: once as an aside as Chris described his relationship with teaching, and a second time when I say I'm "not going to ask him about that." Instead we talk about motivation, psychology, finding a relationship with what you love, and his newest object-of-focus, YouTube. Chris has an energy I think you'll find infectious, and I know you'll enjoy this convo regardless of the genre you're interested in.
Throughout the years, I've had a running mental catalogue on the go-to videos for certain subjects. Jazz swing, building a solo on the drums, tuning, timing, etc. And when I look back, in a surprising number of categories, the "best resource" comes from Rob "Beatdown" Brown. Rob was among the "OGs" on Drumeo, with a great video about Stewart Copeland, and consistently drops authentic takes on his channel. That's why I've been meaning to have a conversation with Rob for some time. I finally caught up with him in early August, and opened the conversation with a question that's been on my mind a bunch: What does he make of this situation where everybody practices chops, but nobody's "allowed" to use them? And has that created a situation in which they're not taught very well. Rob didn't hold back on that subject, and was equally candid in speaking about the importance of real-world playing experience for the "internet generation". We veered a bit into the nature/nurture debate as well, speaking about whether "feel" can be taught - my hobby horse is the crowd that seems to think that, even for people with the capacity for good feel, there's no recourse except to "feel it". Rob was a bit more open minded to the idea that some people have a better innate capacity. Finally, we spoke about YouTube as a mature medium, and the future of careers in drumming. If you want some unfiltered wisdom from one of the OGs, I know you'll enjoy this interview!
Ofri Nehemaya is barely in his '30s, but has already played and toured with Shai Maestro, Aaron Goldberg, Avishai (Bass) Cohen (the same drum chair where Mark Guiliana got his first big break), and Gilad Hekselman. He's also no stranger to bandleading, releasing a viral, self-produced, straight-to-YouTube single called Just Sayin at age…I think it was 19;) Ofri has been on my radar since then, and I was excited to ask him about how he practices, how he channels flow, how he approaches moving to a new scene and "fitting in", and more. You'll see in the opening minutes I'm trying to pull some practice details out of him, and he just wants to talk about flow state and making music, so we go in that direction. (I still suspect he has some juicy shed secrets. Perhaps we'll explore those in a Part Two.)
` Two years ago, I did a virtual drum shed with former podcast guest Raghav Mehrotra, the always-entertaining David Cola, and this week's guest, Josh Crawford. Josh, who rose to fame doing reaction videos to jaw-dropping drummers, is himself an elite player, and in this conversation I wanted to hear his opinions on both sides: becoming the player he is, and also influencer lyfe. Josh is one of the most efficient players I've seen - he plays the most intricate stuff while expending a level of energy that looks more like he's reading a newspaper. We get into some detail as I try to pick his brain about sticking and his approach to playing around the drums in general. We also discuss the ever-present cold war of chops vs pocket, a subject on which Josh has dropped many-a-humorous-instagram voiceover - whether it's Nick Canon footage from Drumline or Russell Croww and Denzel Washington - of famous movie characters "arguing" about pocket vs chops. When I pressed him on the subject, Josh had an unexpected take. And of course we discuss the genesis of his internet fame, whether it was planned or serendipitous, and what he reckons he'd be doing if he hadn't blown up on YouTube. Joshua is both funny and insightful, which is why I have no double you'll enjoy this little chat.