Introducing Jesus Work in Jesus Ways

What happens when leadership systems are driven by unspoken fears, hidden expectations, and anxiety? In Part 2 of this conversation, host Mark Stirling (Director of the MA in Contemporary Christian Leadership at Oak Hill College) continues his discussion with Dr. Tasha Chapman (Covenant Seminary). Dr. Chapman unpacks how groups and ministry organisations function as interconnected systems—where an anxious leader can inadvertently stoke fear, create triangulation, and silence constructive disagreement. Together, they explore why popular business metaphors like "getting the right people on the bus" often backfire in Christian leadership, how self-differentiation rooted in the gospel brings security, and why healthy teams must embrace necessary conflict to truly learn and thrive. Book Now for Building Resilience for Ministry - 4th February 2027 00:00 – Introduction & Part 1 Recap 01:27 – Guest & Host Introductions: Mark Sterling & Dr. Tasha Chapman 03:12 – Understanding Ministry Organisations as Interconnected Systems 06:00 – The Hidden Mobile: Expectations, Interests, and Emotional Dynamics 09:18 – Moving from the "Dance Floor" to the "Balcony" 12:28 – Why "Getting People Off the Bus" Creates Systemic Paralysis 15:46 – Theological Warning: How Anxious Systems Deny Gospel Grace 16:33 – Mid-Roll Announcement: Live Day Conference at Oak Hill College 17:22 – How Anxious Leaders Operate: Blame, Shame, and Command-Control 20:00 – What Happens to Dissenters in Fearful Ministry Systems 24:39 – Unpacking Triangulation: Why Dysfunction Spreads After Meetings 29:12 – The Gospel Cure: Emotional Literacy & Identity in Christ 35:24 – What is Self-Differentiation? Standing Before the Face of God 40:45 – Why Necessary Conflict is Vital for True Ministry Growth 47:45 – "Failing Forward" in Grace: Final Encouragement for Leaders

Why do churches and Christian organisations so frequently appoint leaders who end up causing harm? In this episode of Jesus Work in Jesus Ways, host Mark Stirling sits down with Dr Tasha Chapman for Part 1 of a candid two-part conversation on emotional intelligence, narcissism, and true redemptive leadership. Tasha reveals how rewarding high IQ and technical expertise over emotional health leads to the trap of "hero leadership"—and why true Christian leadership is about gathering people into Christ's shalom rather than having all the answers.

What does it actually look like to lead like Jesus in a world obsessed with titles, power, and status? In this episode of Jesus Work in Jesus Ways, host Mark Stirling sits down with Malcolm McGregor—former International Director of SIM (one of the world's largest mission organisations), architect, and long-time missionary leader in Nigeria and Ethiopia. Malcolm shares his remarkable story of navigating ministry under a Marxist government in Ethiopia, processing deep personal trial and childlessness in Nigeria, and intentionally stepping down from major executive roles to make room for the next generation of global leaders. If you want to understand true servant leadership, the importance of succession, and how to know your own "sell-by date" in ministry, this conversation is essential listening.

What happens when your "front-stage" leadership gifts outpace your "back-stage" life? In this deeply raw, moving, and disarmingly honest conversation, host Mark Stirling sits down with long-time friend, author, and pastor Zack Eswine. In his thirties, Zack appeared to have it all—a flourishing ministry trajectory and a national book award for preaching. But beneath the accolades lay a performance-driven mindset that was stripped away through a painful, "Job-like" season of divorce, job loss, and sudden single fatherhood. Zack shares his journey from performing for God to actually meeting the living person of Jesus in the middle of laundry, crockpot meals, and ordinary daily graces. Together, Mark and Zack explore: Deconstructing "Frowning" Holiness: How rediscovering God’s delight in beauty, art, and creation changes the way we view ministry. The Trap of the "Hero Leader": Moving away from fast, famous, and large-scale success toward faithful, long-term presence. Grace in the Wilderness: How a local Chinese church and loyal elders reframed friendship, grace, and Christian community during Zack's darkest moments. Words for the Weary Leader: What Zack would tell his 25-year-old self about rest, ambition, and identity. Whether you are in pastoral ministry, church leadership, or simply feeling burned out from the pressure to perform, this episode offers a gentle, necessary invitation to rest in the truth that you are already beloved.

How do Christian leaders navigate deep church conflict, avoid the trap of self-deception, and sustain genuine joy over a lifetime of ministry? In this episode, host Mark sits down with retired Baptist pastor, author, and former national Ministry Advisor Andrew Rollinson. Drawing from over 40 years of pastoral leadership—from early mission work in Uganda to pastoring in Newcastle, Morningside, and St Andrews—Andrew shares battle-tested wisdom on what it takes to do Christ's work in Christ's ways. Together, they explore the core themes of Andrew’s book, Conversations by the Sea, focusing on the vital importance of emotional self-awareness, non-anxious leadership, and establishing robust accountability in ministry. Key Takeaways & Topics Covered: Navigating Church Conflict: Why conflict isn't always morally negative, how to build trust, and the creation of "Peaceful Transformation Teams" using Anabaptist Bridgebuilders principles. Leading as a Non-Anxious Presence: The power of doing the basics well, listening before leading, and avoiding power-driven decision-making. Finding Power in Weakness: How tragic and dark moments in ministry reveal God’s grace and shape pastoral collegiality. Theology as Worship: Why reading deep, challenging theology enriches daily pastoral care and guards against "hurry sickness." Self-Awareness vs. Self-Deception: Why self-awareness and security in God are the two most critical traits for leaders, and how to spot our own blind spots. Authentic Accountability: Moving beyond surface-level accountability to intentional annual reviews, counseling, and invites for candid feedback. Books & Resources Mentioned: Conversations by the Sea by Andrew Rollinson The Undefended Leader trilogy by Simon Walker When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat I Told Me So: Self-Deception and the Christian Life by Gregg A. Ten Elshof About Oak Hill College & Jesus Work in Jesus Ways Jesus Work in Jesus Ways is a podcast by Oak Hill College, created to equip pastors, church leaders, and believers to serve Christ with his heart, wisdom, and character. Learn more about Oak Hill College Explore our MA Leadership Course Subscribe & Review: If this episode encouraged you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a ministry leader or friend!