Ep. 255: How to Talk to Siblings About Neurodiversity with Liz Angoff, Ph.D.

We warmly welcome Lauren Stutman, Psy.D to Diverse Thinking Different Learning for this episode. Dr. Lauren Stutman is a licensed clinical psychologist and the founder and clinical director of CARE-LA (Child Anxiety Reduction Experts), a multidisciplinary practice that specializes in anxiety, OCD, and other related challenges in children and adolescents. Drawing on more than two decades of clinical experience (as well as her own childhood experience with anxiety and OCD), Dr. Stutman is passionate about translating evidence-based psychological concepts into practical tools that children and families can understand and use. She is also the author of Rosie and Her Garden of PESTs, an imaginative children's book that helps children recognize and respond differently to their Pesky, Empty, Scary Thoughts. Throughout our conversation, we discuss what anxiety, OCD, and perfectionism look like from a child's perspective and how adults can recognize the struggles that often remain hidden beneath the surface. Dr. Stutman reflects on her own experiences as a child and teen and what it was like to appear socially confident while privately struggling with persistent dread, intrusive thoughts, and compulsive behaviors. She explains how anxiety, OCD, and perfectionism can become intertwined, why adults may overlook the distress behind children who seem to be succeeding on the surface, and what distinguishes healthy ambition from perfectionism that interferes with daily life. Our conversation also looks at broader pressures facing children and families, from academic competition and college admissions to social media and the expectation to excel in every area. Dr. Stutman challenges the tendency to place responsibility solely on parents, arguing that expectations often leave families overwhelmed and children with little room to make mistakes. We get into some practical ways that adults can use to help children recognize negative self-talk, question their assumptions, and develop a healthier relationship with uncertainty and imperfection, and we explore the importance of modeling emotional regulation, acknowledging mistakes, and reminding children that their worth extends beyond grades, achievements, and the labels that others assign them. Finally, Dr. Stutman shares the inspiration behind Rosie and Her Garden of PESTs, which gives young readers a playful, accessible way to identify and challenge their distressing thoughts. This episode of the podcast offers parents, educators, and caregivers valuable insights into helping children feel understood, supported, and free to experience life without the burden of being perfect, and we hope that you enjoy our conversation with Dr. Lauren Stutman! Show Notes: [2:41] - Dr. Stutman reflects on masking her struggles, feeling constant dread, and compensating for difficulties without understanding the "rules." [5:25] - Perfectionism and performative behaviors concealed Lauren's struggles, making them difficult for adults to recognize. [7:11] - Hear how Lauren's painful experiences with anxiety and OCD now help her connect with and support struggling children. [9:43] - Challenging her OCD's compulsions helped redirect Dr. Stutman's energy toward meaningful work, including writing and building her company. [12:28] - Feeling understood can be therapeutic, while societal pressures prioritize academic achievement over mental health. [15:15] - Lauren argues that addressing systemic pressures and embracing imperfect parenting can reduce parental guilt and model healthy emotional regulation. [18:42] - Hear how perfectionism involves rigidity, emotional dysregulation, and harmful self-talk, unlike healthy striving which allows flexibility and resilience. [20:52] - Dr. Stutman highlights mindful thinking, challenging negative thoughts, and prioritizing children's wellbeing over academic pressures. [23:54] - Praising effort over achievement and encouraging personal pride can help children escape limitin

The author of the book Turtles Can Win: How Learning Differences Taught Me to Run My Own Race and Still Cross the Finish Line, Dr. Paul R. Johnson, joins us for this episode. He is the owner and C.E.O. of Leschi Leadership LLC, a consulting firm focused on helping organizations and leaders navigate complex challenges, strengthen performance, and achieve sustainable success, and he brings extensive leadership experience from organizations such as Boeing, Microsoft, Starbucks, Junior Achievement, and the Seattle Symphony, giving him a broad perspective on organizational effectiveness and strategic change. A lifelong learner and educator, Dr. Johnson holds a bachelor's degree from Seattle University, multiple master's degrees, and a Doctor of Education from the University of Southern California. Outside of his professional work, Paul enjoys sports and traveling, and lives in Seattle with his wife, son, and Maltipoo puppy. In our conversation, we discuss what happens when a capable child spends years believing they simply aren't smart enough. For Dr. Paul Johnson, the answer was a long and difficult journey through school, higher education, and eventually a career dedicated to helping others. Despite struggling with undiagnosed learning differences, he earned three master's degrees and a doctorate, but his story isn't simply about academic achievement; it's also about the years of effort, self-doubt, and persistence that made those accomplishments possible. Dr. Johnson shares what school was like when teachers and administrators interpreted his struggles as a lack of effort, even when he knew that he was trying. We talk about the educators who recognized his potential, the strengths that helped him keep going, and the discovery that changing how he studied could make an enormous difference. He also reflects on becoming a father and recognizing aspects of his own childhood in his son's educational experience, and how that realization prompted him to examine his own learning differences more closely and to write a book that might help other students and families understand that struggling at one stage of life does not determine what comes next. In addition, our conversation turns to the responsibility of schools and workplaces to look beyond deficits and recognize the assets that people bring. Dr. Johnson shares lessons from his work in human resources and education, including how flexible schedules, accessible tools, and attention to individual strengths can help people perform at their best. Whether you're a parent, educator, employer, or someone who has spent years questioning your own abilities, this episode will surely offer you a different way to think about success.

We are happy to warmly welcome Dr. Elizabeth Dexter-Mazza to the show for this episode. Dr. Dexter-Mazza is a licensed clinical psychologist and certified DBT therapist with more than 25 years of experience in clinical practice, training, and consultation. She co-authored DBT-based social-emotional learning curricula for elementary and secondary students and co-owns Mazza Consulting & Psychological Services and DBT in Schools with her husband, Jim Mazza. She also provides DBT treatment and professional training internationally, working with adolescents, adults, families, mental health providers, and schools, and her work is centered on promoting mental wellness and resilience through culturally responsive DBT practices and her mission to make DBT skills accessible to children through general education. Throughout our conversation, we touch upon an important question - what if we stopped expecting children to just pay attention, manage their emotions, make good decisions, and get along with others and instead explicitly taught them the skills they need to do those things? Dr. Dexter-Mazza discusses why emotional regulation and other life skills belong alongside reading, writing, and math, and what can change when educators teach those skills instead of simply expecting students to already have them. Elizabeth also explains what DBT actually means and how school-based DBT differs from comprehensive DBT therapy. Rather than asking teachers to become therapists, DBT Steps E gives educators developmentally appropriate ways to teach mindfulness, emotion regulation, distress tolerance, interpersonal effectiveness, and problem-solving as everyday skills. We explore how these skills can help students become more effective learners, particularly when frustration or strong emotions make it especially challenging to access the cognitive resources that are needed for learning. We also discuss the importance of breaking seemingly simple expectations down into teachable behaviors. Elizabeth shares some examples of helping students recognize when their attention has wandered, notice an urge before acting on it, and use that brief pause as a "choice point." Dr. Dexter-Mazza explains how this approach can be especially useful for neurodivergent learners, including students with ADHD, by replacing vague instructions such as "Pay attention!" with concrete skills that can actually be practiced. Finally, we look at what it takes to make these skills part of a school's culture rather than another curriculum that appears once a week. Dr. Dexter-Mazza shares some strategies for getting started, building teacher buy-in, and allowing successful practices to grow throughout a school or district. This conversation offers a practical look at what it means to teach children not only how to learn, but how to manage the experiences that can sometimes get in the way of learning, so we hope that you enjoy this conversation with Dr. Elizabeth Dexter-Mazza!

Dr. Wilson brings us another solo episode this time, opening up about how accommodations can make an enormous difference for students who learn and process information differently. Extended time, audiobooks, speech-to-text, movement breaks, preferential seating, and other means of support can truly reduce barriers and help students participate more successfully in school, but what happens when those supports improve performance but do very little to address the underlying skills a student still needs to develop? Dr. Wilson touches upon the distinction between accommodations, interventions, and modifications, focusing on what can happen when skill building is missing from a student's educational plan, and she explains why helping a child complete an assignment, produce more writing, or finish a test does not necessarily mean that the child is becoming a stronger reader, writer, or independent learner. Using examples involving dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD, and sensory differences, Dr. Wilson examines the problems with relying solely on accommodations and discusses several examples: audiobooks can provide access to grade-level material, but they don't teach decoding; typing and speech-to-text can make it easier to express ideas, but they don't automatically strengthen written organization or language formulation; extra time and assignment chunking can reduce pressure for students with ADHD, but they don't inherently teach planning, organization, or self-monitoring. The conversation also considers what happens as students get older. Dr. Wilson discusses the importance of pairing accommodations with evidence-based intervention and explicitly teaching skills which can gradually increase independence over time without treating support as something that should simply be removed or using skill development as an excuse to force neurodivergent students to mask. Technology adds another interesting layer to Dr. Wilson's lecture, particularly as calculators, speech-to-text, and AI can help compensate for difficulties almost instantly. Dr. Wilson asks listeners to consider an important distinction: Are we helping students perform better right now, or helping them become more capable over time?

This week, Dr. Karen Wilson is touching upon resilience and how our definition of it can sometimes be part of the problem. She challenges the idea that resilience means pushing through stress, staying quiet, or succeeding no matter the emotional cost. After all, a child who appears to be thriving on the outside may actually be running on empty. After a recent conversation with a parent, Dr. Wilson felt inspired to explain why good grades, athletic success, and responsible behavior don't always reflect a child's well-being, and she explores the important difference between coping and genuinely thriving, especially for children with learning and thinking differences who may work far harder than their peers while hiding their struggles. In this episode, Dr. Wilson shares six practical ways that parents can encourage resilience without fueling burnout. She discusses why it's important to recognize effort instead of focusing solely on outcomes, make room for genuine recovery, reduce pressure to be perfect, encourage emotional honesty, recognize early warning signs of burnout, and help children understand their worth extends far beyond achievement. Whether your child is entering a new school, adjusting to new routines, or facing the everyday demands of growing up, this conversation offers thoughtful reminders about what healthy resilience really looks like. Rather than teaching children to suppress their needs, Dr. Wilson makes the case for helping them recognize stress, seek support, recover from setbacks, and build confidence in ways that protect their mental health for years to come.