8 traits of a renegade leader

Jon and Kory discuss why, in an increasingly online world, some of the most important work still happens when people are together in a room. From recording the podcast face-to-face to building high-performing teams, they explore what is lost when every interaction becomes a scheduled video call. Not productivity or convenience, but the trust, informal learning and unexpected opportunities that are much harder to create remotely. They examine the changing attitude towards office life, including a Gen Z counter-swing towards real-world connection, and why some investors remain wary of backing fully remote teams. Kory also shares why e.l.f. is continuing to invest in in-person experiences, and how events can create connections that genuinely change someone’s career or life.

Jon and Kory discuss why the metrics designed to improve performance can sometimes lead businesses in exactly the wrong direction. Kory explains why e.l.f. does not tie compensation directly to KPIs, and why misaligned targets can discourage creativity, distort decision-making and even put good people at risk. They also tackle a growing leadership problem: treating KPIs as instructions rather than information. How high should targets be? When do they create useful focus, and when do they become a ceiling? And what should leaders use instead when the work requires judgement, experimentation and long-term thinking? Timestamps 00:00 - Start 01:01 - Do KPIs kill creativity? 02:56 - Goodhart’s law 03:31 - Why e.l.f. do not have compensation based KPIs 06:50 - Why misaligned KPIs can get you fired 09:37 - Can KPIs hold you back? 13:25 - People are using KPIs like AI 14:19 - How high should you set KPIs 16:19 - The better way to approach KPIs 19:09 - Are KPIs out?

Jon and Kory discuss why humour is a serious advantage for brands, leaders and anyone trying to earn attention. They explore the science behind why humour makes ideas more memorable, why funny advertising has become less common, and the important difference between trying to be amusing and using humour to reveal a truth. The conversation looks at what it takes to create the conditions for humour to thrive: giving people permission to take creative risks, planning for it rather than treating it as an afterthought, and understanding why brands such as Liquid Death make it look effortless.

Jon and Kory discuss why persuasion is one of the most important, and overlooked, skills in leadership. Getting an idea approved is rarely about delivering the perfect argument in a meeting. It starts earlier: asking better questions, listening closely, understanding what different people need, and finding the stories that make an idea feel relevant rather than imposed. They explore the role of verbal and non-verbal communication, why the meeting is never really just the meeting, and how to build support before a decision is formally on the table. Kory also shares practical lessons from winning over her own board, persuading an organisation to take risks, and turning advocates into people who will sell the idea when you are not in the room. A practical episode for leaders who need to influence without forcing, build alignment without endless consensus, and give their best ideas a genuine chance of happening. Links The Storyteller's Secret Book Timestamps

Jon and Kory discuss the Wiseman’s 15 building blocks of customer obsession: a practical framework for turning customer-first intentions into the way an organisation actually works, exemplified by Dutch Bros. As always, Kory brings the data behind customer-obsessed organisations before the duo discuss why internal politics so often gets in the way, and whether founder-led businesses have a natural advantage when it comes to staying close to the people they serve. From empowering frontline teams to reading every customer complaint, they unpack the behaviours that make customer obsession tangible rather than a line in a values document. They also draw on lessons from Unreasonable Hospitality, challenge the limitations of the golden rule, and consider how leaders can embed a customer-first mindset across the business. Links Founders Mentality Book Unreasonable Hospitality Book