Show Notes
Jackie Tileston, a painter and Professor of Fine Arts at the University of Pennsylvania, brings decades of nondual practice and a working artist's eye to the question of what psychedelics, mysticism, and art have to teach each other. In this episode, Joe talks with Jackie about the Penn Psychedelics Collaborative and the course she co-teaches, Psychedelic Paradigms and Practices, why the mystical experience keeps showing up in clinical trials, the differences between nondual traditions and why they matter for integration, how 5-MeO-DMT is likely to fare in a clinical setting, what a good landing space after a session might look like, and why she thinks most psychedelic art is a postcard from the trip rather than an invitation into one. If a psychedelic experience can leave someone convinced that the world is an illusion, who in the room is prepared to help them come back? Enjoy the show. Recorded October 6, 2026 at Jackie's office at Penn In This Episode The origins of the Penn Psychedelics Collaborative and the PhilaDelic conferences Teaching Psychedelic Paradigms and Practices, supported by the SNF Paideia Program Thirty years of meditation and nondual study before her first psychedelic experience How David Yaden first came through her classroom The debate over dropping the word mysticism from research Why mystical experience scores predict better outcomes, and why researchers dislike that A shift from materialism-first to consciousness-first thinking How nondual lineages differ, and Abhinavagupta's critique of Advaita Ontological trauma after high-dose nondual experiences Meditation-related harms and Cheetah House Should facilitators have their own psychedelic experience? The Sherpa analogy Clinical 5-MeO-DMT and the case for low-dose, stepwise protocols Designing landing spaces after a session without setting too many priors Psychedelic art as a postcard from the trip, and abstraction as an invitation Bruce Damer, the Center for MINDS, and James Fadiman's creative problem-solving studies Christof Koch's 5-MeO-DMT experience and conversation with Bernardo Kastrup David Eagleman's Possibilianism and Christopher Timmermann's neurophenomenology Why worldview change may be the most political act Links Jackie Tileston: https://jackietileston.com Penn Psychedelics Collaborative: https://www.pennpsychedelicscollaborative.org Psychedelic Paradigms and Practices: https://snfpaideia.upenn.edu/course/spring/2027/psychedelic-paradigms-and-practices-2/ The Pattern Project: https://patternproject.substack.com/p/start-here-the-pattern-project Cheetah House: https://www.cheetahhouse.org Then I Am Myself the World by Christof Koch: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/christof-koch/then-i-am-myself-the-world/9781541602809/
More from Psychedelics Today
Joe sits down with Jordan Kronick, the director, writer, and producer of Peaking: Psychedelics and the Pursuit of Happiness, a new documentary now rolling out in theaters city by city. The film covers six substances (psilocybin, LSD, ayahuasca, ibogaine, MDMA, and 5-MeO-DMT from the toad) and puts cameras inside the dosing room. Viewers follow first-time users before, during, and after their experiences. Jordan's path into this work goes back to 2003, when he produced Ecstasy Rising for Peter Jennings at ABC News. That primetime documentary challenged the government's "holes in your brain" campaign, and the scientist behind the flawed study retracted it before the film aired. Rick Doblin credits that moment with helping open the door to MAPS' first MDMA for PTSD research. Joe and Jordan talk about brain injury in pro sports, including Daniel Carcillo's story and a planned Johns Hopkins study on concussions. They cover the film's "big tent" approach and how Jordan found subjects through Heroic Hearts Project and Beond in Cancun. Joe raises his concerns about toad sustainability and safety. From there they get into the drug war's echoes from the 1960s to the 1980s, the Starck Club in Dallas, and Michael Clegg, the man credited with naming ecstasy. They close on today's bipartisan support for psychedelics, the road to FDA approval for Compass Pathways and Lykos, and the strange prospect of psychedelics becoming federally legal before cannabis. About Jordan Kronick Jordan Kronick is a documentary filmmaker who began his career at ABC News as a producer for Peter Jennings Reporting, where he made Ecstasy Rising (2004). He later worked at HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel, reporting on psychedelics in sports in 2020. Peaking premiered in June 2026 at Dances With Films at the TCL Chinese Theatre in Los Angeles. In this episode Making a six-substance documentary in 19 months, from March 2024 to October 2025 How Ecstasy Rising debunked the MDMA neurotoxicity campaign Psychedelics, concussions, and CTE in the NHL, NFL, and MMA Daniel Carcillo and a planned Johns Hopkins study on brain repair Following veterans to the Amazon with Heroic Hearts Project Ibogaine for opioid addiction at Beond in Cancun Toad in the California desert, plus Joe's caution on sustainability and the myth of ancestral use Clinical versus experiential approaches to psychedelic work How the 1980s MDMA crackdown mirrored the 1960s The Starck Club, Michael Clegg, and why ecstasy spread so fast Rick Perry, veterans, and bipartisan support for ibogaine Compass Pathways, Lykos, patents, and what FDA approval would and wouldn't legalize Psychedelics leapfrogging cannabis Chapters 00:00 Intro 04:15 Meet Jordan Kronick and Peaking 05:38 From the LA premiere to a city by city theatrical release 08:39 Ecstasy Rising and the "holes in your brain" campaign 13:01 Following the renaissance, and psychedelics in sports at HBO 19:33 Can psychedelics repair the brain? 22:19 Designing a "big tent" film 26:05 Witnessing transformation in the dosing room 28:10 Finding the subjects 32:47 Toad: wild edges and real concerns 38:46 Access in Oregon and Colorado 41:12 The drug war, 1960s and 1980s 47:58 Rick Doblin's role 49:30 Archival footage and early research 51:08 Michael Clegg, Texas, and the Starck Club 56:30 Bipartisan support and ibogaine in Texas 58:16 What's next with the FDA 1:02:36 Psychedelics before cannabis? 1:04:40 Where to see Peaking
Kenneth Tupper has spent decades working at the intersection of drug policy, public health, harm reduction, education, and psychedelics.
This is an important discussion about harms, and what we should be doing about them. Josh and Roman are working on a major study at Emory University to answer some of the basic and outstanding questions we have about psychedelic risks and cases that can be challenging to recover from. We have a lot of work to do characterizing these experiences, and developing appropriate treatments for helping people bounce back more quickly.
This is a special episode featuring two of our favorite organizations. DanceSafe and Shulgin Foundation. Listen to Joe Moore record with the heads of these orgs and learn about how you may be able to buy some art to support them. This is a singularly important history and partnership.
My friend Mareesa joins us again on PT to discuss art, integration, psychedelic experiences without drugs, the heros journey and her smaller sphinxes that may start touring the country! Enjoy! Here are some machine generated shownotes if you find them useful!