Show Notes
Ever feel like you're winning at life on paper, hitting your steps, your salary goals, your sleep score, and somehow still feel worse? This episode explains why. Host Michael Easter sits down with the thinker who's lived rent-free in his head for five years: C. Thi Nguyen, a philosophy professor at the University of Utah and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game. They dig into a phenomenon Nguyen calls "value capture." The moment you start chasing a number, the metric quietly takes over the goal you actually cared about. He walks through vivid examples like how his weight tracker made him eat worse, and why a friend quit rock climbing because it lowered his step count. From there, they zoom out to how this applies to playing video and board games, and how you can in fact use metrics and 'games' to make your life happier, so long as you don't get obsessed. They also discuss longevity culture, and the single question a student wrote on her phone that pulled her out of five years of depression: “Is this the game you really want to be playing?” Two Percent is hosted by Michael Easter. Today’s episode was produced by Joey Fischground, Robbie Hiser, Dana Brawer and Julia Nutter. From Kaleidoscope, our executive producers are Mangesh Hattikudur and Kate Osborn and Julia Nutter. From iHeart, our executive producers are Katrina Norvell and Nikki Ettore. Our Head of Video is Maria Paz Mendez Hodes. This episode was edited by Joey Fischground. Our theme music is by the Heater Manager. GET A FREE GUIDE TO EXAMPLES OF MISOGI. GO TO https://www.twopct.com AND ENTER YOUR EMAIL. I share similar insights around health and wellness here:https://substack.com/@michaeleasterhttps://instagram.com/michael_easter/https://linkedin.com/in/michael-easter-b208848/https://facebook.com/easter.michaelhttps://tiktok.com/@michael_easter6https://x.com/Michael_Easter Chapters: 00:00 — Cold open 00:38 — The thinker who lives rent-free in Michael's head 02:24 — The weight-loss story that started it all 05:08 — How calorie tracking made him eat worse 08:41 — What "value capture" actually means 09:32 — The friend who quit rock climbing over his step count 11:31 — Grades: why the best students get B's 17:03 — Learning outcomes & how institutions warp us 19:19 — Why chasing a salary backfires 20:02 — It's not the apps — it's a 1,000-year-old story 22:36 — Why modern wine got worse (Robert Parker) 25:18 — The clothes that fall apart in two months 27:43 — Why numbers capture us: portability vs. sensitivity 30:33 — Scores as "clarity devices" 33:10 — What a game actually is 35:50 — The marathon & the cab 38:03 — Goal vs. purpose: the magic circle 41:41 — Striving vs. achievement play 48:35 — Why your sleep score is lying to you 54:39 — We've all become "pickup artists" 56:00 — Doctors, education policy & Men's Health 58:41 — Seeing Like a State: the forest that collapsed 1:00:32 — What this says about longevity culture 1:03:24 — The man whose resolution was to drink more 1:04:53 — Why joy doesn't need a medical justification 1:07:38 — So what do you actually do about it? 1:09:26 — "Is this the game you really want to be playing?" 1:12:07 — Hobbes: whoever defines success rules you 1:13:40 — Why conspiracy theories feel so good 1:16:07 — Three board games everyone should play Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
More from Two Percent with Michael Easter
Up to half of Americans say their sleep is bad, and the rules for fixing it keep piling up. Michael speaks with David Samson, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Toronto and author of The Sleepless Ape, about why modern people sleep longer and better than hunter-gatherers yet worry about it far more, why our body clocks are the real mismatch, top sleep myths, and which sleep advice is worth following. They discuss:
Most of us avoid anything we might fail at. Michael speaks with Dr. Marcus Elliott about Misogi, his yearly challenge with about a 50 percent chance of failure, and why we overestimate the cost of failing, the benefits of Misogi, and what the data on elite athletes still can't measure. In addition to creating the modern Misogi, Marcus founded P3, the world's top sports science lab. They discuss:
Brian Driscoll became acting director of the FBI through what he believes was a clerical error in 2025. He was then asked to hand over the names of thousands of FBI employees who worked the January 6 investigations, which would have placed their careers and safety in jeopardy. He resisted and became a legend in the bureau. Brian told Michael what pushing back cost him, and why he calls "it is what it is" the most accepted form of surrender. They discussed:
Michael speaks with Harvard evolutionary biologist Dan Lieberman, author of Fed Up. They talked about how humans didn't evolve to think about what to eat, the history of food and humans, what Dan learned trying popular diets for the book, biggest diet myths, and where Dan lands on exercise and weight loss. They covered:
A lot of us think of quitting as a path to failure. Michael speaks with Lindsay Crouse, the former New York Times writer, editor and producer, lifelong distance runner and author of The Case for Quitting, about when perseverance backfires, how to tell meaningful suffering from the pointless kind, and the signs it's time to walk away. They discuss: