SPOTLIGHT: Untangling Tech Debt and Finding Product-Market Fit with Russ Mikowski of SurePeople | Russel Mikowski, CEO @ SurePeople

Michael Walrath, CEO of Yext, is back on Topline to explain how Yext went from breakeven to 31% EBITDA margins on an 80% gross margin business, after halving its headcount and using its balance sheet to buy back roughly 35% of every share it ever issued. He joins Sam Jacobs, AJ Bruno, and Asad Zaman to argue that the old rules of business still apply: why VC math and founder math are different games, why employees lose the most when an overvalued startup like Airtable lands far below its peak valuation, and why this market feels like 2004. Plus, why Yext stopped doing earnings calls and replaced most stock comp with cash, why cutting the bottom half of a sales team can raise bookings, and how Yext is blurring the lines between AEs, account managers, CSMs and sales engineers. Key Takeaways: - Real profitability turns any growth into fuel. As Michael put it, "when you're actually profitable, like really profitable, then any growth becomes hugely accretive." With 80% gross margins and 31% EBITDA margins, "Every incremental dollar, I can spend 45 cents of it and not affect my margins in any way," so a left-for-dead software company can fund its own growth whatever the market says it's worth. - Chase growth only where it actually exists. "Nothing's more powerful than growth at creating value. Nothing is more destructive to value than chasing growth when the growth isn't there," said Michael. Airtable avoided the trap by leaving its cash on the balance sheet, while Yext once spent 74% of revenue on sales and marketing into a declining growth rate. - Cutting your weakest sellers can grow bookings. When 20% of reps make quota and the bottom half brings in 20% of bookings, the spreadsheet says cutting them costs you that 20%. "It's not even close to true. It's the opposite," said Michael (his numbers were illustrative). Yext now has fewer, better sellers, and is "effectively eliminating all distinction between go-to-market roles" in favor of teams that own books of customers. - Stock comp can turn your own employees into sellers of your stock. Most people sold their RSUs the day they vested, and every quarterly issuance meant the company sold shares to cover taxes too. "The last thing you need are more sellers of your stock every quarter," said Michael, so Yext now pays most employees more cash and points long-term believers to its employee stock purchase plan. Connect with the Hosts & Guests: Host: Sam Jacobs, CEO at Pavilion - https://www.linkedin.com/in/samfjacobs/ Host: AJ Bruno, CEO at QuotaPath - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajbruno3/ Host: Asad Zaman, CEO at STA - https://www.linkedin.com/in/azaman1/ Guest: Michael Walrath, CEO at Yext - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-walrath-b63166/ Topline is more than a podcast: Subscribe to Topline Newsletter: https://toplinemedia.substack.com/ Check us out on YouTube for the #1 video podcast for founders, operators, and investors in B2B tech: https://www.youtube.com/@TOPLINE-Media Join the free Topline Slack channel to connect with 600+ revenue leaders to keep the conversation going beyond the podcast: https://www.joinpavilion.com/topline-slack Chapters: 00:00 Introducing Mike Walrath 03:13 VC Math vs Founder Math 04:46 Why Employees Lose the Most 09:05 Why This Market Feels Like 2004 12:04 31% EBITDA Makes Growth Accretive 16:12 Why Mike Is a Jobs Bull 19:48 What Airtable Got Right 28:19 Hot Startup Equity Is a Lottery 41:37 Yes, You Can Attract Talent 44:16 The Road to 30% EBITDA Margins 47:45 No Earnings Calls, No IR Team 51:52 Replacing Stock Comp With Cash 54:41 Cut the Bottom 50% of Sellers 57:19 Collapsing Go-to-Market Roles 01:01:22 From PE Guy Back to Growth

When Rick Smolen stepped into the CRO role at ShipHero, he took on responsibility for the entire customer lifecycle, from marketing and partnerships to customer success and support. With a background primarily in sales, he had to learn how to lead functions outside his expertise without needing to have all the answers. In this episode, Rick joins Sam Jacobs to discuss the leadership lessons that came with that transition, from asking better questions to building trust with his team. He also explains how to learn from failure, navigate setbacks, and focus on what you can control as a leader. Rick talks about: - Why curiosity makes you a stronger cross-functional leader - How to challenge your team without micromanaging - Why experimentation requires accepting failure - What leaders should focus on when business results fall short - How to prioritize important work that rarely feels urgent Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Rick Smolen and ShipHero 01:10 What ShipHero Does 05:14 Rick's Career Journey 07:50 From Sales Leader to CRO: The Biggest Shift 10:49 Why Curiosity Makes You a Better Leader 16:23 Building a Leadership Team That Learns and Experiments 17:54 Evaluating Leadership Beyond Revenue 22:50 Rick's Book Recommendation: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People 24:53 Where to Find Rick Smolen Try ShipHero: shiphero.com

Amy Konary, Founder & Chair of The Subscribed Institute at Zuora, coined the term SaaS as an IDC analyst around 2000, when her first forecast sized the whole market at $40 million. She joins Sam Jacobs, AJ Bruno, and Asad Zaman for the first in-person Topline to ask whether AI company economics are a house of cards, and whether circular financing and double counting are real problems. Plus, why POCs have stopped being a pipeline signal, experimental revenue versus true ARR, a new leverage index for sticky revenue, tokens versus credits, and how close outcome pricing can really get. Key Takeaways: - Treat POCs as a weak pipeline signal. As Amy put it, "it used to be that hands-on product was a really good signal from a pipeline perspective, but everyone's doing POCs just to kick the tires, but actually has no mandate to buy." Many are free, production-ready builds, and very few convert. - Usage alone won't tell you which revenue will last. Amy scores customers on scope and workflows, trust in the system's outputs, and how much of their own context they upload, because "you can have 2 customers with the exact same usage, but very different leverage." Low leverage means "That revenue is less durable." - Pure usage pricing can leave you as exposed as seats did. "If you're just tracking usage, and usage is highly experimental, and usage decreases over time as people optimize the tools, you're in the same vulnerable position you were in with seats," said Amy, who expects hybrid models with a smaller, trackable outcome piece. - Build for durability without rigidity. "So I think there's a difference between durability and rigidity," Amy said, and her metaphor is bamboo: one of the strongest construction materials, yet flexible, anchored by a clear focus on the customer's progress. Connect with the Hosts & Guests: Host: Sam Jacobs, CEO at Pavilion - https://www.linkedin.com/in/samfjacobs/ Host: AJ Bruno, CEO at QuotaPath - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajbruno3/ Host: Asad Zaman, CEO at STA - https://www.linkedin.com/in/azaman1/ Guest: Amy Konary, Founder & Chair, The Subscribed Institute at Zuora - https://www.linkedin.com/in/amykonary/ Topline is more than a podcast: Subscribe to Topline Newsletter: https://toplinemedia.substack.com/ Check us out on YouTube for the #1 video podcast for founders, operators, and investors in B2B tech: https://www.youtube.com/@TOPLINE-Media Join the free Topline Slack channel to connect with 600+ revenue leaders to keep the conversation going beyond the podcast: https://www.joinpavilion.com/topline-slack Chapters: 00:00 Introducing Amy Konary 01:43 From ERP Sales to Industry Analyst 03:33 How Amy Konary Named SaaS 08:03 How Salesforce Taught the Street SaaS 10:31 Building Durable Companies for AI 11:52 Does Gross Margin Still Matter? 15:10 Who Is Checking AI Company Math? 17:03 Circular Financing and Double Counting 18:30 Is AI a House of Cards? 21:49 Durability Versus Rigidity 29:19 Be Careful About Your POCs 33:40 The Leverage Index for Sticky Revenue 39:12 SaaS Companies Moving Into Services 41:59 Tokens, Credits and Outcome Pricing 48:32 P(doom) and Raising Kids With AI

When Sam Jacobs founded Pavilion, formerly Revenue Collective, he set out to build a private community for operators in a startup world that traditionally celebrated founders and overlooked the people running the business. But as Pavilion grew to 10,000+ members, the very thing that made the community valuable began to get diluted.

Manny Medina, Co-Founder and CEO of Paid, the monetization platform for AI agents, and the founder who took Outreach from nothing, joins Sam Jacobs, AJ Bruno, and Asad Zaman in person on how to price AI agents once seats stop making sense. Topics include why every SaaS company needs its own agents before someone else's run on its MCP layer, why a token is the wrong unit of value, and the itemized phone bill every agent builder owes its buyers. Plus, why fixed-price deals win logos but stall expansion, the case for 40% to 60% gross margins in the agent era, and what Satya Nadella told Manny in a green room.