with Dr. Charmaine Brown and Professor Denise Miller

In Part Two of my conversation with Dr Kathy Obear, we move from understanding whiteness to exploring what it actually means to take responsibility, build accountability and interrupt racism in practice. We begin with white accountability spaces. What happens when white people are given somewhere to examine racism honestly? How do we work with shame, defensiveness, tears and discomfort without allowing those responses to recentre whiteness? And what happens when people leave those spaces and return to organisations where speaking up may carry consequences? Kathy draws on decades of facilitation and organisational change work to explore how white people can develop the awareness, skills and relationships needed to recognise racism, interrupt harmful dynamics and act differently. Importantly, this isn't about becoming the "best white person in the room". Kathy challenges the idea of the facilitator as the expert who has somehow solved racism. Instead, we discuss the power of honesty, vulnerability, community and being willing to recognise the racism we have been socialised into. Together, we discuss: White accountability groups and what makes them effective Shame, defensiveness and white women's tears Why accountability doesn't have to mean humiliation Moving from individual understandings of racism towards group and organisational analysis How white people can recognise their own participation in racist dynamics Facilitation without positioning ourselves as the expert Building community as part of anti-racist practice Speaking up when there may be organisational consequences Working differently in all-white and racially mixed spaces Avoiding reliance on people of colour to educate white people about racism Triggers, hot buttons and emotional responses Entitlement, power and unmet needs Practical ways of interrupting inequitable dynamics Repairing harm and taking responsibility for impact Why organising, connection and truth-telling matter Kathy also talks candidly about her own mistakes and learning, including moments when entitlement, competitiveness and racism have shown up in her own thinking. We explore how seemingly small interventions can begin to interrupt organisational patterns: asking a question, slowing a meeting down, noticing whose voice has been missed, examining who benefits from a decision, or simply being willing to name what others would prefer to leave unspoken. And we finish with the question I ask every guest: What does whiteness hate? For Kathy, the answer takes us towards connection, community, truth-telling, organising, speaking up and the willingness to hold a mirror to what is actually happening.

In Part One of my conversation with Dr Kathy Obear, I explore whiteness, white accountability and the everyday behaviours through which racism and inequity can continue to operate within our organisations. Kathy is an author, facilitator, coach and founder of the Center for Transformation and Change. With more than 40 years of experience in conflict resolution, change management and creating inclusive cultures, her work has been hugely influential in my own learning and practice. In this episode, Kathy reflects candidly on her own journey as a white woman working in equity and social justice, including the moments when others challenged her to recognise where her own understanding of racism was limited. Together, we discuss: what whiteness is and why it can be so difficult (for white people) to see and define

In the final part of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore some of the most influential ideas within Critical Race Theory and why they remain so relevant to understanding racism today. Beginning with Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence, David explains why progress towards racial equity is often temporary, how moments of change emerge, and why systems of power frequently adapt to preserve themselves. We also discuss why Critical Race Theory has become so politically contested, what researchers often misunderstand about it, and why returning to the original scholars remains essential. In this episode, we discuss: Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence

In Part Two of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore one of the most enduring and politically influential narratives in education today: the idea that white working-class children have become the forgotten victims of race equality. Drawing on decades of research and evidence from his latest book, White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory, David unpacks how this narrative developed, why it continues to dominate public debate, and who ultimately benefits from it. Together, we examine how conversations about race are often reframed to shut down anti-racist work, despite there being no evidence that improving racial equity comes at the expense of white children living in poverty. In this episode, we discuss: the myth of white working-class victimhood

In Part One of this special three-part conversation, I sit down with Professor David Gillborn, one of the UK's leading Critical Race Theory scholars and a lifelong researcher of racism in education. We begin by exploring one of the most fundamental questions in race scholarship: what is whiteness? David explains why he increasingly prefers the term white racism over whiteness, arguing that the language we use matters because terms are continually reshaped, politicised and, at times, stripped of their original meaning. Drawing on his own working-class upbringing, his early experiences in education, and decades of research, David reflects on how class, race and institutional power intersect, and how those experiences shaped his career as a sociologist and race scholar. Together, we discuss: Why David prefers the term white racism rather than whiteness