Show Notes
Most cloud security incidents trace back to the customer, and most of those trace back to identity. Jeff and Jim sit down with Mike Small, Senior Analyst at KuppingerCole, to unpack Cloud Native Application Protection Platforms (CNAPP) and why identity practitioners should care. Mike explains how identity controls in the cloud have become data defined in code, why ephemeral workloads break traditional scan-then-deploy security, and how CNAPP evolved from static configuration analysis into runtime monitoring and SOC integration. The conversation covers the shared responsibility model, SOC 2 attestations and complementary user entity controls, multi-cloud complexity, and why standards matter for portability and sovereignty. Mike also looks at CNAPP as a security plane for AI, agents as another layer of non-human identity, recent market consolidation, and the cloud as national critical infrastructure. Plus, a detour into amateur radio, Morse code exams, and low-power QRP contacts across the Atlantic.
Connect with Mike: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikesmall01/
AI Identity and Agentic Trust: https://www.kuppingercole.com/blog/small/ai-identity-and-agentic-trust
Mike's other writing for KuppingerCole: https://www.kuppingercole.com/people/small
Connect with us on LinkedIn:
Jim McDonald: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimmcdonaldpmp/
Jeff Steadman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffsteadman/
Visit the show on the web at http://idacpodcast.com
00:00 Welcome and fall conference season 02:52 Introducing Mike Small 03:19 From engineer to identity software to analyst 05:07 What is CNAPP and why should IAM care? 07:21 Most cloud incidents are the customer's fault 11:00 Identity controls in the cloud are data 15:17 Static configuration analysis vs. runtime monitoring 19:34 Is CNAPP a product or a platform? 21:07 CSPM, CWPP, CIEM, KSPM and CNAPP capabilities 23:12 The shared responsibility model 27:46 Who defines secure? SOC 2 and complementary user entity controls 31:40 Multi-cloud and the case for standards 35:18 CNAPP as the security plane for AI 40:48 Where the CNAPP market heads next 44:34 Acquisitions and consolidation in cloud security 46:50 The cloud as national critical infrastructure 50:08 How sovereign is a sovereign cloud? 53:12 MCP and the speed of AI standards 53:39 Mike's passion for amateur radio 1:05:20 The CNAPP elevator pitch 1:06:14 Wrap up
IDAC, Identity at the Center, Jeff Steadman, Jim McDonald, Mike Small, KuppingerCole, CNAPP, Cloud Native Application Protection Platform, cloud security, CIEM, cloud infrastructure entitlement management, CSPM, CWPP, KSPM, shared responsibility model, least privilege, misconfiguration, runtime monitoring, SOC 2, complementary user entity controls, multi-cloud, non-human identity, NHI, AI agents, agentic AI, MCP, sovereign cloud, critical infrastructure, identity standards, MFA, amateur radio, IAM, identity and access management
More from Identity at the Center
Bojan Simic, co-founder and CEO of HYPR, returns to Identity at the Center for a Sponsor Spotlight conversation with Jim McDonald. Bojan traces HYPR's path from passwordless authentication to a broader set of identity assurance controls and explains how assurance differs from verification across the full employee lifecycle. He describes what organizations find when they look for worker impersonators, from remote employees outsourcing their jobs to North Korean operatives, and why verification has to continue past day one. The conversation then turns to AI agents: why IAM teams are becoming the HR of AI, how agent identity differs from human identity, why humans can't manually govern agents at scale, and why securing MCP alone misses the full context of an agent's session. Bojan also covers what is slowing passwordless adoption, adaptive risk, alert fatigue, and how identity teams and the SOC can work together. This episode was made possible with support from HYPR.
Eve Maler, founder of Venn Factory and author of Mastering Digital Identity, joins Jim McDonald and Jeff Steadman for her tenth appearance on Identity at the Center. Eve shares what she has learned since the book came out, from writing for non-technical executives (and keeping AI out of the manuscript) to the strange places identity ends up on the org chart. The conversation covers treating identity as a product, why identity can be a business model in disguise, how CISOs can influence CIAM when they are not the boss of it, and the identity debt that AI is now calling due. Eve also explains why intent looks more like purpose of use than finer-grained authorization, how contract language can help frame agent mandates, what trust means to humans versus security teams, and the early work on UMA for Agents (U4A) to govern third-party agents through a resource-centric, protect surface mindset. The episode wraps with travel tips from all three frequent flyers.
Shea McGrew, Chief Technology Officer at Maricopa County, returns to Identity at the Center one year after episode 376 to take on a question she first raised at our Identity After Dark session: when does digital identity become critical infrastructure? Jeff and Jim talk with Shea about how a county broadband and digital equity project led her to see digital trust as the thread running through every digital government service, and why that trust depends on identity. The conversation covers building an external identity portal for residents, designing for consent and privacy from the start, why residents extend trust to private platforms more readily than to government, the right to be forgotten, data governance across departments, and where decentralized identity and verifiable credentials might fit. Shea also shares her view on access reviews as a learning journey, what it would take to trust AI agents with certifications, and whether an agent could ever be considered a citizen. Plus, potatoes and the proper way to cut a sandwich.
Alex Bovee, CEO and co-founder of C1.ai (formerly ConductorOne), returns for his third appearance on Identity at the Center. Alex walks Jim and Jeff through the rebrand to C1.ai and why the .ai matters: identity now covers humans, workloads, and agents. The conversation opens on launch week and the new App Hub, built around a question many CIOs and CISOs are facing. What happens when everyone in the company becomes a builder and vibe-coded apps start running critical workflows?
Jeff flies solo for episode 450, joined by Alexis Bernthal, an associate on RSM's technology risk consulting team who found her way to the podcast through a corporate-wide email and a contact form submission that led to an invitation to Identiverse. They trace how Alexis went from failing a high school computer science class to finishing a CS degree, and how a topic on the show, role-based access, first put identity and access management on her radar. Alexis walks through what technology risk consulting looks like day to day, her first industry conference experience at Identiverse (including Identibeer, sessions on agentic identity and transaction tokens, and a Women in Identity gathering), and the blog she started at AlexisBernthal.com to document her own journey. The conversation turns to what it takes to bring more early-career people into identity: the perceived technical barrier, the value of mentorship and simply introducing yourself at conferences, and whether seniority is really a prerequisite (Jeff's own path started with programming parking lot lighting identities at Walgreens). They close things out with a browser tab hot take and a warning about what not to leave open during a screen share.