Show Notes
As MCC grew as a denomination, they tried to figure out if and how to relate to other churches. Would any befriend a queer church? And if so, would that friendship help other churches shift their perspective on homosexuality? These questions got harder as AIDS numbers grew—it made people more afraid yet friendship more vital. But sometimes friendship emerges in the most unlikely of places. Like when a children’s choir visited an AIDS ward in San Francisco and sang for an MCC member there. That connection started a partnership between their churches that changed them both. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-4. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits: When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. “Who Kept Us” is by Dr. Margaret Douroux. “The Wicked Shall Cease” is by Jessy Dixon. “Jesus is Here Right Now” is by Leon Roberts. “Child of God” and “Walk Together Children” are traditional African American spirituals. Special thanks to Mary Clover Obrzut, Stephen’s sister, for insights into his life and for so much great audio.
Dr. Cheryl Townsend Gilkes for telling us about Stephen’s time at Union Baptist and connecting us with folks there.
Alfred Williams for helping us get connected to Double Rock.
Dr. April Parker and Mardy Coates for facilitating the use of “Who Kept Us.”
And to the folks at Double Rock Baptist Church, past and present, especially the beloved Minister of Music.
Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Some links to good groups Balm in Gilead – works to integrate public health and faith principles. It was founded by Dr. Pernessa Seale in to help Black churches address HIV/AIDS and support people and families living with AIDS. Double Rock Baptist Church – is still worshipping and ministering in Bayview/Hunters Point. They were deeply involved in community support during the Covid-19 epidemic. Love All People – is the ministry that introduced MCC to Margaret Douroux’s song, Who Kept Us, to MCC.
National Minority AIDS Council – works for heath equality and racial justice to end the AIDS epidemic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
More from When We All Get To Heaven
If you’d like to support our podcast and show everyone how important and impactful this story is, we hope you will take a moment to vote for us for The Signal Listener’s Choice Award by going to vote.signalaward.com/publicvoting.
Slate and the team at Eureka Street Productions are so honored by this award and want to thank everyone who has listened to and supported the show. This series tells the story of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco, one of the first gay-positive churches in America, and how its congregation faced the AIDS epidemic, including the deaths of hundreds of its members.
As When We All Get to Heaven wraps up, Christina sits down with series host Lynne Gerber and producer Siri Colom. They discuss how the church has changed, the value of fleeting queer spaces, and what a decade or more spent working on this story has meant to—and taught—them. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Produced by Palace Shaw and Merritt Jacob. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
In the final episode of When We All Get to Heaven, we catch up on what’s happened in the many years between the emergence of effective treatment for AIDS in the late ‘90s and the fall of 2025, when we recorded this episode. We linger on a moment back in June 1999, when Jim was still pastor and called on the church to remember that AIDS wasn’t over. Because—advances notwithstanding—it still isn’t over. For more on Gilbert Baker and the history of the rainbow flag see the Gilbert Baker Foundation. For more on Prep see San Francisco AIDS Foundation, What is PrEP? “The Path that Ends AIDS: 2023 UNAIDS Global Update” outlines a possible end to the AIDS epidemic.
In 1996 everything changed. With the introduction of antiretroviral medications called the “AIDS cocktail,” people started getting better – some dramatically – and surviving AIDS became a real possibility. In the wake of these changes, MCC found itself taking stock of what they lost to AIDS and using what they learned to address larger social issues– from medical marijuana to homelessness. Sometimes these political stances felt heroic and a way to use that collective energy, and other times it made the church very unpopular with the changing Castro neighborhood.