They Know What They're Doing—They Just Don't Think It's Wrong (My Big Reveal)
Waking Up to NarcissismShow Notes
"He wasn't evil." Those three words from actor Christoph Waltz, from an interview on how he prepared himself to play one of the most brutal, cruel characters to grace a movie screen, explain exactly why the narcissist in your life can hurt you and then look at you with genuine confusion when you share with them how what they've done, or said, has hurt you. What if they know what they are doing, but they believe they are justified, that they are "right."
In this landmark episode, Tony Overbay, LMFT, makes a deeply personal revelation: many of the "listener stories" shared on this podcast were actually drawn from his own lived experience with his emotionally immature mother, who passed away in 2025. Through his own journey of differentiation—and a powerful insight from Simon Sinek about why nobody believes they're the villain—Tony reframes the question that keeps every pathologically kind person stuck: "Do they know what they're doing?"
In this episode, you'll discover:
Why "he wasn't evil" changes everything — the Christoph Waltz principle that explains how narcissistic people cause harm without ever believing they've done anything wrong.
The critical difference between "right" and "good" — and why the emotionally immature person's unshakable certainty is more dangerous than deliberate cruelty.
How pathological kindness becomes the trap — why your empathy keeps you decoding their intent instead of asking, "Is this acceptable to me?"
Tony's personal journey through Schnarch's four points of balance — what it actually looked like to stop needing external validation from the person least likely to give it.
The reframe that sets you free — moving from "Are they doing it on purpose?" to "Does the impact on me change either way?"
Drawing from over 20 years of clinical work, his own differentiation journey, and the real experiences behind this podcast, Tony delivers one of his most honest and transformative episodes yet. If you've ever wondered whether your partner truly sees what they're doing, this one will meet you exactly where you are.
Reach out at tonyoverbay.com or join the private women's Facebook group and the new Men's Emotional Architects group to connect with people who finally get what you've been going through.
Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch, on TikTok @virtualcouch, and on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com
00:00 Big Reveal Setup
01:02 Mother's Day Story
02:49 It Was Me
03:45 Why I Stayed Quiet
07:58 Five Rules Primer
09:10 Popcorn Moments
11:35 Do They Know
14:07 Waltz And Sinek
17:18 Good Versus Right
18:14 Faith And Certainty
24:19 Pathologically Kind
25:37 Maris And Ansel
28:30 Inside The Immature Mind
30:10 Therapy Pattern Recognition
31:53 Intentionality Toggle
32:40 Beyond Good or Evil
33:50 Confabulation Defense Mode
35:26 Vulnerability Feels Like an Attack
36:39 Compassion Trap for Kind People
37:59 Healthy Repair Looks Like
38:54 Why Aha Moments Rarely Stick
40:43 Differentiation With My Mom
48:37 Hospice Doctor Mix Up
54:48 Stop Waiting Choose You
55:41 Articulate Gaslighting Explained
57:04 Let Go of Intentionality
59:12 Closing Support and Community
Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist, betrayal trauma certified, and host of The Virtual Couch, Waking Up to Narcissism, and Love, ADHD podcasts.
If the idea of change through agency—not shame—resonates with you, explore Tony's Magnetic Marriage course at tonyoverbay.com/magnetic
Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch, on TikTok @virtualcouch, on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft, and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/. You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com
Contact Tony at [email protected] to learn more a
More from Waking Up to Narcissism
Narcissistic personality disorder vs. emotional immaturity: what separates the two, and why that difference shapes how you heal.
Why do smart, thoughtful people believe such different things? Authority bias, confirmation bias, and belonging shape what we believe long before we can explain why.
Narcissistic relationship patterns can teach you where to stop, long after anyone has to correct you. Installment 12 of Death by 1,000 Cuts uses the image of an invisible fence to describe how a dog learns to stop at a line nobody walking by can see, and how people living with emotional immaturity and ongoing criticism can learn in much the same way. Listener stories from husbands and wives describe rehearsing an afternoon in the driveway before walking inside, planning vacations that end at the same lake cabin every year, and giving up bedtime after enough notes from the doorway. Those adjustments made a lot of sense, and this episode makes room to get curious about which ones you still need. Episode highlights: Recognize how small, repeated corrections can teach your nervous system where the line is, even after the correction stops coming Explore four patterns from listener emails: the walking, the accounting of your time, the illusion of choice, and being set up to fail Hear a listener describe the attack surface in action, when a simple question about her husband's work landed very differently than the same question from their bishop two hours later Notice whether your brain reaches for an escape hatch when a story almost matches yours, or starts stacking up evidence before you allow yourself to act Consider next steps at a pace that fits your situation, including support and safety planning when more independence could bring retaliation Tony Overbay, LMFT, has spent more than 20 years working with couples and has advanced training in betrayal trauma. If one of these stories brought your own to mind, I'd love to hear it for a future Death by 1,000 Cuts episode. It doesn't need to be dramatic or polished, and you can tell me whether it's okay to share on the show. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com 00:00 The Dog and the Line 03:03 Podcast Welcome and Series Setup 04:04 Termites and Tiny Cuts 06:03 Why People Don’t Get It 09:26 Listener Email Begins 10:14 The Narcissistic Laugh 12:07 Inside a Narcissist’s Monologue 18:25 Church Parking Lot Whiplash 21:10 Invisible Fence in Relationships 24:56 Curiosity Over Proof 28:52 Patterns Across Emails 29:50 Walking Ahead Stories 32:56 Small Cuts Add Up 35:11 One-Way Compromise 39:07 Accounting for Time 40:59 Interrogation Disguised 47:37 Illusion of Choice 51:08 Control by Attrition 54:19 Set Up to Fail 59:41 Invisible Fence Metaphor 01:01:35 What to Do Next 01:04:48 Closing Thoughts
Was it narcissistic abuse, or were you the problem? Why does the fog lift after a divorce, and you still can't trust your own judgment?
When someone you love tells you, “Something you did hurt me,” what happens inside of you next? Do you become curious about what it was like to be on the receiving end of you, or does your brain immediately start building the case for why you did what you did, what you meant, what they misunderstood, and what they did first?